Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define 
relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact (positive 
or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?

The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and the 
assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?

Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
*fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress this
enough.

Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:

This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact (positive
: or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
:
: The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and the
: assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?

I think the question is not so much whether relationships are necessary,
but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be better
to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
table design?



-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...] 
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?

Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
*fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
this
enough.

Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:

This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
(positive
: or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
:
: The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
the
: assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?

Hi Andy

I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather than
the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your Create
statements that the relations will automagically appear in the relations
window anyway.
Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a plan of
your database.

Cheers
Darrell

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?



I think the question is not so much whether relationships are necessary,
but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be better
to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
table design?



-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?

Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
*fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
this
enough.

Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:

This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
(positive
: or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
:
: The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
the
: assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?

I guess the question I am asking is whether there is any impact on 
performance for a Web based database - being a newbie to ASP and all that.
> Hi Andy

I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather than
the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your Create
statements that the relations will automagically appear in the relations
window anyway.
Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a plan of
your database.

Cheers
Darrell

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?



I think the question is not so much whether relationships are necessary,
but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be better
to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
table design?



-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?

Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
*fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
this
enough.

Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:

This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
(positive
: or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
:
: The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
the
: assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <mark.picton@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: I guess the question I am asking is whether there is any
: impact on performance for a Web based database - being a
: newbie to ASP and all that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think you can see that the consensus is that you must enforce referential
integrity in your database. There is some debate about how you should create
those constraints in the first place.

Referential integrity has nothing to do with ASP, and everything to do with
good database design/development. It's a bit like saying "Are brakes
necessary for cars?" I mean, they do weigh something, which increases the
car's inertia which means it consumes more petrol (probably insignificant
amounts), but they are fundamental to being able to use a car...

Cheers
Ken



: > Hi Andy
:
: I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather than
: the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your Create
: statements that the relations will automagically appear in the relations
: window anyway.
: Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a plan of
: your database.
:
: Cheers
: Darrell
:
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
: Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
: To: Access ASP
: Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
: it?
:
:
:
: I think the question is not so much whether relationships are necessary,
: but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
: forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be better
: to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
: table design?
:
:
:
: -----Original Message-----
: From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
: To: Access ASP
: Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
: it?
:
: Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
: *fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
: this
: enough.
:
: Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:
:
: This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574
:
: Cheers
: Ken
:
: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
: Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?
:
:
: : Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: : relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
: (positive
: : or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
: :
: : The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
: the
: : assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?
:
:
:
:
:

Ken, thanks for your input - I'm still a little puzzled - I appreciate that
referential integrity is good design etc, my experience of supporting
(Oracle) systems is that any concession to referential integrity is not so
much an afterthought as a never considered! [If available in Oracle], then
it would suggest to me that it's not put in for a good reason - performance
perhaps? From what I can gather it's a given in the Access community.

"Ken Schaefer" <ken@a...> wrote in message
news:187191@a..._asp...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> From: <mark.picton@g...>
> Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?
>
>
> : I guess the question I am asking is whether there is any
> : impact on performance for a Web based database - being a
> : newbie to ASP and all that.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> I think you can see that the consensus is that you must enforce
referential
> integrity in your database. There is some debate about how you should
create
> those constraints in the first place.
>
> Referential integrity has nothing to do with ASP, and everything to do
with
> good database design/development. It's a bit like saying "Are brakes
> necessary for cars?" I mean, they do weigh something, which increases the
> car's inertia which means it consumes more petrol (probably insignificant
> amounts), but they are fundamental to being able to use a car...
>
> Cheers
> Ken
>
>
>
> : > Hi Andy
> :
> : I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather
than
> : the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your
Create
> : statements that the relations will automagically appear in the relations
> : window anyway.
> : Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a plan
of
> : your database.
> :
> : Cheers
> : Darrell
> :
> : -----Original Message-----
> : From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
> : Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
> : To: Access ASP
> : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
> : it?
> :
> :
> :
> : I think the question is not so much whether relationships are necessary,
> : but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
> : forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be better
> : to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
> : table design?
> :
> :
> :
> : -----Original Message-----
> : From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
> : Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
> : To: Access ASP
> : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
> : it?
> :
> : Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
> : *fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
> : this
> : enough.
> :
> : Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:
> :
> : This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced topics.
> : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574
> :
> : Cheers
> : Ken
> :
> : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> : From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
> : Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?
> :
> :
> : : Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
> : : relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
> : (positive
> : : or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
> : :
> : : The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
> : the
> : : assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?
> :
> :
> :
> :
> :
>
>
>

I don't know what your experience is vis-a-vis Oracle, so I can't really
comment.

However, relationships/referential integrity is DBMS independent. It is a
fundamental concept of designing relational databases (pick up any textbook
on modelling/designing databases), along with normalisation etc. If you
don't enforce relationships you can end up in the same situation you would
be in if you didn't normalise your database (orphaned records etc).

To be honest, I'm kinda of stunned that there's any database development
place out there that does not consider modelling and implementing
relationship constraints to be a central part of developing a relational
database...

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Ken, thanks for your input - I'm still a little puzzled - I appreciate
that
: referential integrity is good design etc, my experience of supporting
: (Oracle) systems is that any concession to referential integrity is not so
: much an afterthought as a never considered! [If available in Oracle], then
: it would suggest to me that it's not put in for a good reason -
performance
: perhaps? From what I can gather it's a given in the Access community.
:
: "Ken Schaefer" <ken@a...> wrote in message
: news:187191@a..._asp...
: >
: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: > From: <mark.picton@g...>
: > Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
: it?
: >
: >
: > : I guess the question I am asking is whether there is any
: > : impact on performance for a Web based database - being a
: > : newbie to ASP and all that.
: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >
: > I think you can see that the consensus is that you must enforce
: referential
: > integrity in your database. There is some debate about how you should
: create
: > those constraints in the first place.
: >
: > Referential integrity has nothing to do with ASP, and everything to do
: with
: > good database design/development. It's a bit like saying "Are brakes
: > necessary for cars?" I mean, they do weigh something, which increases
the
: > car's inertia which means it consumes more petrol (probably
insignificant
: > amounts), but they are fundamental to being able to use a car...
: >
: > Cheers
: > Ken
: >
: >
: >
: > : > Hi Andy
: > :
: > : I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather
: than
: > : the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your
: Create
: > : statements that the relations will automagically appear in the
relations
: > : window anyway.
: > : Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a plan
: of
: > : your database.
: > :
: > : Cheers
: > : Darrell
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
: > : Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
: > : To: Access ASP
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they
worth
: > : it?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : I think the question is not so much whether relationships are
necessary,
: > : but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
: > : forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be
better
: > : to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
: > : table design?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
: > : Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
: > : To: Access ASP
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they
worth
: > : it?
: > :
: > : Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
: > : *fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't stress
: > : this
: > : enough.
: > :
: > : Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:
: > :
: > : This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced
topics.
: > : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574
: > :
: > : Cheers
: > : Ken
: > :
: > : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: > : From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?
: > :
: > :
: > : : Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: > : : relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
: > : (positive
: > : : or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
: > : :
: > : : The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' and
: > : the
: > : : assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:

Ken, prepare to be kinda stunned - I've come across at least three 
enterprise class Oracle, numerous SQLServer and MS Access databases that 
do not have an inkling of referential integrity - all for a very large 
multinational - so its not that they can't get the staff. In addition I 
know of at least one large CRM vendor that does not build it into its 
products. 

So the question remains does its implementation affect performance? In 
some sense I can see how it would - for example each time a record is 
updated it may cause a whole load of referential activity to be 
instigated, whereas if not then a check at the first level of the 
relationships (I'm thinking of relationships on 3 or more levels) would be 
sufficient - that said I don't know how smart a typical DBMS is in its 
referential integrity checking strategy. If performance can be affected 
then it could possibly have an effect on an ASP deployment due to timeouts 
etc.

> I don't know what your experience is vis-a-vis Oracle, so I can't really
comment.

However, relationships/referential integrity is DBMS independent. It is a
fundamental concept of designing relational databases (pick up any textbook
on modelling/designing databases), along with normalisation etc. If you
don't enforce relationships you can end up in the same situation you would
be in if you didn't normalise your database (orphaned records etc).

To be honest, I'm kinda of stunned that there's any database development
place out there that does not consider modelling and implementing
relationship constraints to be a central part of developing a relational
database...

Cheers
Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: <markp@g...>
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth it?


: Ken, thanks for your input - I'm still a little puzzled - I appreciate
that
: referential integrity is good design etc, my experience of supporting
: (Oracle) systems is that any concession to referential integrity is not 
so
: much an afterthought as a never considered! [If available in Oracle], 
then
: it would suggest to me that it's not put in for a good reason -
performance
: perhaps? From what I can gather it's a given in the Access community.
:
: "Ken Schaefer" <ken@a...> wrote in message
: news:187191@a..._asp...
: >
: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: > From: <mark.picton@g...>
: > Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
: it?
: >
: >
: > : I guess the question I am asking is whether there is any
: > : impact on performance for a Web based database - being a
: > : newbie to ASP and all that.
: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: >
: > I think you can see that the consensus is that you must enforce
: referential
: > integrity in your database. There is some debate about how you should
: create
: > those constraints in the first place.
: >
: > Referential integrity has nothing to do with ASP, and everything to do
: with
: > good database design/development. It's a bit like saying "Are brakes
: > necessary for cars?" I mean, they do weigh something, which increases
the
: > car's inertia which means it consumes more petrol (probably
insignificant
: > amounts), but they are fundamental to being able to use a car...
: >
: > Cheers
: > Ken
: >
: >
: >
: > : > Hi Andy
: > :
: > : I think it is always best to use SQL to create your relations rather
: than
: > : the Access relationship window.  You will notice after running your
: Create
: > : statements that the relations will automagically appear in the
relations
: > : window anyway.
: > : Also by using SQL (preferably with an ERM) you will always have a 
plan
: of
: > : your database.
: > :
: > : Cheers
: > : Darrell
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Andy Inala [mailto:ainala@d...]
: > : Sent: 21 June 2002 15:36
: > : To: Access ASP
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they
worth
: > : it?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : I think the question is not so much whether relationships are
necessary,
: > : but whether the relationship *window* in access 2000 is necessary for
: > : forming those relationships.  So I'm still curious...would it be
better
: > : to use the relationship graph in access, or just to hard code it in
: > : table design?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > : -----Original Message-----
: > : From: Ken Schaefer [mailto:ken@a...]
: > : Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 11:20 PM
: > : To: Access ASP
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they
worth
: > : it?
: > :
: > : Relationships (and hence enforcing Referential Integrity) are a
: > : *fundamental* part of developing a relational database. I can't 
stress
: > : this
: > : enough.
: > :
: > : Can I suggest you pick up a book on database design/development:
: > :
: > : This is one that I recommend, which covers a number of advanced
topics.
: > : http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201708574
: > :
: > : Cheers
: > : Ken
: > :
: > : ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
: > : From: "Mark Picton" <markp@g...>
: > : Subject: [access_asp] Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?
: > :
: > :
: > : : Is there any real value in using the relationship window to define
: > : : relationships in Access 2000? Moreover, does it have any impact
: > : (positive
: > : : or negative) on deploying the database to the Web via ASP\ADO?
: > : :
: > : : The reason for asking this is does using the 'relationship tool' 
and
: > : the
: > : : assoicated referential integrity options ADD anything?
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
: >
:
:
:

Hi 

This is very unusual.  Completely defeats the point of having a relational 
database in the first place.  The whole idea is preventing data redundancy 
and duplication.

To answer your question as to whether referential integrity can slow your 
asp down, it could yes if your tables are not normalised properly or if 
they are over normalised.  Will asp run faster without referential 
integrity?  It probably would but if you have loads of duplication and 
inconsistencies what's the point?

Cheers
Darrell


> Ken, prepare to be kinda stunned - I've come across at least three 
e> nterprise class Oracle, numerous SQLServer and MS Access databases that 
d> o not have an inkling of referential integrity - all for a very large 
m> ultinational - so its not that they can't get the staff. In addition I 
k> now of at least one large CRM vendor that does not build it into its 
p> roducts. 

> So the question remains does its implementation affect performance? In 
s> ome sense I can see how it would - for example each time a record is 
u> pdated it may cause a whole load of referential activity to be 
i> nstigated, whereas if not then a check at the first level of the 
r> elationships (I'm thinking of relationships on 3 or more levels) would 
be 
s> ufficient - that said I don't know how smart a typical DBMS is in its 
r> eferential integrity checking strategy. If performance can be affected 
t> hen it could possibly have an effect on an ASP deployment due to 
timeouts 
e> tc.

This sounds to me like a database was developed Ad Hoc without much
planning ahead of time.  In terms of long term maintenence, upkeep,
and general retrieval, insertion, and house keeping this is not a
good application.

To go back now and way they are wrong is probably the right thing
to say for future projects.  Will they update what they have probably
not, but it can always serve as an example of what not to do in the
future.  As Ken has said, there are many books out there and it just
takes some research and planning..
Regards,
Chuck

>
>
> > Ken, prepare to be kinda stunned - I've come across at least three
>e> nterprise class Oracle, numerous SQLServer and MS Access databases that
>d> o not have an inkling of referential integrity - all for a very large
>m> ultinational - so its not that they can't get the staff. In addition I
>k> now of at least one large CRM vendor that does not build it into its
>p> roducts.
>
> > So the question remains does its implementation affect performance? In
>s> ome sense I can see how it would - for example each time a record is
>u> pdated it may cause a whole load of referential activity to be
>i> nstigated, whereas if not then a check at the first level of the
>r> elationships (I'm thinking of relationships on 3 or more levels) would
>be
>s> ufficient - that said I don't know how smart a typical DBMS is in its
>r> eferential integrity checking strategy. If performance can be affected
>t> hen it could possibly have an effect on an ASP deployment due to
>timeouts
>e> tc.
>




"If your not part of the solution,
there is good money to be made
prolonging the problem."


http://peleus.dhs.org:81/aa8vs


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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Darrell, I'm not sure that's actually the case - I have come across at least
one situation where the 'best' solution to the display of data from mutliple
tables on a single form was to generate a view based on a (highly
denormalised) table that was built (overnight) from a whole series of
related tables. Creating a view based on the normalised tables just was not
feasible given the response times required. On the whole relational database
ARE slow when compared to say hierarchical or OO databases. The former are
just plain awkward to maintain, whilst the latter seem to be the good idea
no-one wants - relational seems to me to be a halfway house.

"Darrell" <darrell@b...> wrote in message news:188272@a..._asp...
>
> Hi
>
> This is very unusual.  Completely defeats the point of having a relational
> database in the first place.  The whole idea is preventing data redundancy
> and duplication.
>
> To answer your question as to whether referential integrity can slow your
> asp down, it could yes if your tables are not normalised properly or if
> they are over normalised.  Will asp run faster without referential
> integrity?  It probably would but if you have loads of duplication and
> inconsistencies what's the point?
>
> Cheers
> Darrell
>
>
> > Ken, prepare to be kinda stunned - I've come across at least three
> e> nterprise class Oracle, numerous SQLServer and MS Access databases that
> d> o not have an inkling of referential integrity - all for a very large
> m> ultinational - so its not that they can't get the staff. In addition I
> k> now of at least one large CRM vendor that does not build it into its
> p> roducts.
>
> > So the question remains does its implementation affect performance? In
> s> ome sense I can see how it would - for example each time a record is
> u> pdated it may cause a whole load of referential activity to be
> i> nstigated, whereas if not then a check at the first level of the
> r> elationships (I'm thinking of relationships on 3 or more levels) would
> be
> s> ufficient - that said I don't know how smart a typical DBMS is in its
> r> eferential integrity checking strategy. If performance can be affected
> t> hen it could possibly have an effect on an ASP deployment due to
> timeouts
> e> tc.
>
>
>

Hi Mark

Different situations certainly can demand different solutions.  Without a
doubt XML will cause a rise in the use of hierarchical dbs, can't comment
about oodbs as I know nadda about them.

The fact is the majority of businesses web or not use some form of rdbms.
If they are planned and managed properly they work fantastic and cause
little mess.  Unfortunately as you have pointed out this is rarely the case.

Cheers
Darrell

-----Original Message-----
From: markp@g... [mailto:markp@g...]
Sent: 26 June 2002 20:39
To: Access ASP
Subject: [access_asp] Re: Relationships in Access 2000 - are they worth
it?


Darrell, I'm not sure that's actually the case - I have come across at least
one situation where the 'best' solution to the display of data from mutliple
tables on a single form was to generate a view based on a (highly
denormalised) table that was built (overnight) from a whole series of
related tables. Creating a view based on the normalised tables just was not
feasible given the response times required. On the whole relational database
ARE slow when compared to say hierarchical or OO databases. The former are
just plain awkward to maintain, whilst the latter seem to be the good idea
no-one wants - relational seems to me to be a halfway house.

> d> o not have an inkling of referential integrity - all for a very large
> m> ultinational - so its not that they can't get the staff. In addition I
> k> now of at least one large CRM vendor that does not build it into its
> p> roducts.
>
> > So the question remains does its implementation affect performance? In
> s> ome sense I can see how it would - for example each time a record is
> u> pdated it may cause a whole load of referential activity to be
> i> nstigated, whereas if not then a check at the first level of the
> r> elationships (I'm thinking of relationships on 3 or more levels) would
> be
> s> ufficient - that said I don't know how smart a typical DBMS is in its
> r> eferential integrity checking strategy. If performance can be affected
> t> hen it could possibly have an effect on an ASP deployment due to
> timeouts
> e> tc.
>
>
>