I would like this forums opinions of Extreem Programming as I have noticed 
a plethera of job postings with XP on the menu of "Skills Required". 
My first impression of XP was a concern for the well-being of all the 
brilliant men and women who are "Heads-Down" programmers.  Skilled in 
technical issues, but lacking advanced conversational skills.  I have 
always played the roll in the team between these types of individuals and 
management to make sure that everyones issues are understood.  Generally I 
can't see these technically oriented people working in pairs and walking 
around joined at the hip.  
I would welcome an opportunity to play a part in an XP team to try it out. 
I like to stay open minded.  Maybe someone has encountered this problem 
and solved it in a more creative way than simply firing the heads-down 
team members.

XP is not just about pair-programming. Read more about it at 
http://www.extremeprogramming.org. There are many facets of XP that can be 
plugged in to other methodologies. If systems are to be more agile, then the 
people responsible for those systems need to be more able to adapt (i.e., 
not just be heads-down). A lack of communication is the first step in a bad 
approach. Developers need to be able to communicate their ideas to everyone, 
not just one person.

>From: jerrylan@q...
>Reply-To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>Subject: [application_development] Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:59:17
>
>I would like this forums opinions of Extreem Programming as I have noticed
>a plethera of job postings with XP on the menu of "Skills Required".
>My first impression of XP was a concern for the well-being of all the
>brilliant men and women who are "Heads-Down" programmers.  Skilled in
>technical issues, but lacking advanced conversational skills.  I have
>always played the roll in the team between these types of individuals and
>management to make sure that everyones issues are understood.  Generally I
>can't see these technically oriented people working in pairs and walking
>around joined at the hip.
>I would welcome an opportunity to play a part in an XP team to try it out.
>I like to stay open minded.  Maybe someone has encountered this problem
>and solved it in a more creative way than simply firing the heads-down
>team members.


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John,

<<more able to adapt (i.e., not just be heads-down)>>
Thats a shame.  I am not just a heads-down programmer, but the World is full
of them.  These are brilliant individuals not all, but some with what you
would consider "personality disorders" and some  with full blown
disabilities such as Autism and Aspergers Syndrome.  Many of these are the
very people who have given us the greatest concepts and theories of the last
1000 years.  I have seen the value of these people on the team, and so does
the Americans With Disabilities Act. The more I read about XP the more I
realize that it plays to the average level. If you aren't like everyone else
you don't belong.  This includes both the brilliant and the specialist.
Most of the innovations in this World were due to the brilliant and the
specialists.  I have my reservations about XP and I have had too much
success with those who take a little longer to speak their brilliant ideas
to throw them by the wayside.  Maybe I should start a company and hire them
as you throw them out.  We'll kick butt.

Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Owen" <johnlowen_bham@h...>
To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 2:24 PM
Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons


> XP is not just about pair-programming. Read more about it at
> http://www.extremeprogramming.org. There are many facets of XP that can be
> plugged in to other methodologies. If systems are to be more agile, then
the
> people responsible for those systems need to be more able to adapt (i.e.,
> not just be heads-down). A lack of communication is the first step in a
bad
> approach. Developers need to be able to communicate their ideas to
everyone,
> not just one person.
>
> >From: jerrylan@q...
> >Reply-To: "Application Development"
<application_development@p...>
> >To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
> >Subject: [application_development] Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 18:59:17
> >
> >I would like this forums opinions of Extreem Programming as I have
noticed
> >a plethera of job postings with XP on the menu of "Skills Required".
> >My first impression of XP was a concern for the well-being of all the
> >brilliant men and women who are "Heads-Down" programmers.  Skilled in
> >technical issues, but lacking advanced conversational skills.  I have
> >always played the roll in the team between these types of individuals and
> >management to make sure that everyones issues are understood.  Generally
I
> >can't see these technically oriented people working in pairs and walking
> >around joined at the hip.
> >I would welcome an opportunity to play a part in an XP team to try it
out.
> >I like to stay open minded.  Maybe someone has encountered this problem
> >and solved it in a more creative way than simply firing the heads-down
> >team members.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>
>
>
>

Wow, you read a lot into something for someone who is supposed to be able to 
communicate ideas to others. I never once insinuated any of the things you 
suppose.

Just because you haven't used XP in valuable ways, doesn't mean it isn't 
good. It also isn't reserved for one type of project or one type of 
personnel. Communication is key to solving problems and becoming better at 
solving problems, especially those common to software development.

XP celebrates this communication by providing a means for all those involved 
in the software development process to contribute on multiple levels as 
their experience allows. XP is ideal for teaming together people of varying 
skill levels and varying levels of understanding.

I again suggest you extensively read the XP site I provided. Additionally, 
get off your soapbox. The statements you made towards me were not only 
misguided, but ridiculous.

John

>From: "Jerry Lanphear" <jerrylan@q...>
>Reply-To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
>Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:03:12 -0700
>
>John,
>
><<more able to adapt (i.e., not just be heads-down)>>
>Thats a shame.  I am not just a heads-down programmer, but the World is 
>full
>of them.  These are brilliant individuals not all, but some with what you
>would consider "personality disorders" and some  with full blown
>disabilities such as Autism and Aspergers Syndrome.  Many of these are the
>very people who have given us the greatest concepts and theories of the 
>last
>1000 years.  I have seen the value of these people on the team, and so does
>the Americans With Disabilities Act. The more I read about XP the more I
>realize that it plays to the average level. If you aren't like everyone 
>else
>you don't belong.  This includes both the brilliant and the specialist.
>Most of the innovations in this World were due to the brilliant and the
>specialists.  I have my reservations about XP and I have had too much
>success with those who take a little longer to speak their brilliant ideas
>to throw them by the wayside.  Maybe I should start a company and hire them
>as you throw them out.  We'll kick butt.
>
>Regards
>

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

I have studied the website you offered and also studied the following:
http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm

http://ootips.org/xp.html

This site offers interesting contrarian opinions.
http://www.softwarereality.com/ExtremeProgramming.jsp

Database programming is the meat of the IT World. How does it work with XP?
http://www.xp2002.org/atti/Hassan-Elssamadisy--ExtremeProgrammingandDatabase
Administration.pdf

Here's a university case study.  It concludes that more research is needed
before adoption of these methods should be endorsed.
http://www.ipd.uka.de/~muellerm/publications/icse01.pdf

Now, here's my closing tidbit I will offer at the risk of again being called
ridiculous.  Why is it called "Extreme Programming"? Is it supposed to
appeal to those who do "Extreme Sports"? Whether it's Wakeboarding,
Freestyle Motocross, Skating or Snow Boarding extreme sportsmen are
concerned with the performance of the INDIVIDUAL. They strive to be the best
at one particular trick.  Of course the team is most important, so why is it
so named? This is the opposite of XP which emphasizes the team.
My past studies and use of "Method One" lead me to call that adventure
"Extreme Documentation". I haven't seen anything at all "extreme" about XP.
It seems to be for those who wish to hide behind the status quo, provide
business as usual and leave no later than 5:00 PM. After all, when your pair
programmer has bad breath its really bad after 8 hours.

More case study could convince me otherwise.

Regards

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Owen" <johnlowen_bham@h...>
To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:00 AM
Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons


> Wow, you read a lot into something for someone who is supposed to be able
to
> communicate ideas to others. I never once insinuated any of the things you
> suppose.
>
> Just because you haven't used XP in valuable ways, doesn't mean it isn't
> good. It also isn't reserved for one type of project or one type of
> personnel. Communication is key to solving problems and becoming better at
> solving problems, especially those common to software development.
>
> XP celebrates this communication by providing a means for all those
involved
> in the software development process to contribute on multiple levels as
> their experience allows. XP is ideal for teaming together people of
varying
> skill levels and varying levels of understanding.
>
> I again suggest you extensively read the XP site I provided. Additionally,
> get off your soapbox. The statements you made towards me were not only
> misguided, but ridiculous.
>
> John
>
> >From: "Jerry Lanphear" <jerrylan@q...>
> >Reply-To: "Application Development"
<application_development@p...>
> >To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
> >Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
> >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:03:12 -0700
> >
> >John,
> >
> ><<more able to adapt (i.e., not just be heads-down)>>
> >Thats a shame.  I am not just a heads-down programmer, but the World is
> >full
> >of them.  These are brilliant individuals not all, but some with what you
> >would consider "personality disorders" and some  with full blown
> >disabilities such as Autism and Aspergers Syndrome.  Many of these are
the
> >very people who have given us the greatest concepts and theories of the
> >last
> >1000 years.  I have seen the value of these people on the team, and so
does
> >the Americans With Disabilities Act. The more I read about XP the more I
> >realize that it plays to the average level. If you aren't like everyone
> >else
> >you don't belong.  This includes both the brilliant and the specialist.
> >Most of the innovations in this World were due to the brilliant and the
> >specialists.  I have my reservations about XP and I have had too much
> >success with those who take a little longer to speak their brilliant
ideas
> >to throw them by the wayside.  Maybe I should start a company and hire
them
> >as you throw them out.  We'll kick butt.
> >
> >Regards
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
>
>
>
>

In the case of the site that provides a contrasting opinion, I disagree that 
you must adopt all of XP for it to succeed. I have used parts of it 
successfully throughout my career, even before the collection of practices 
was dubbed XP. It does provide interesting insight to full-scale use of XP, 
but I must ask you : Have you used it yourself or are you merely quoting 
sites to build some case here? Seems strangely reminiscent of the scene from 
"Good Will Hunting".

As for your little tidbit, I have been involved in many projects and the use 
of XP practices do not lend toward individualism. If used wisely, things 
like pair programming allow for more open lines of communication and more 
thoughtful approaches, thus building a stronger team.

The hardest part of following XP, in my opinion, is getting the client to be 
involved at such a demanding level. Most clients want to take a "give and 
go" approach and then make sacrifices late in the project that result in an 
unfinished and unsatisfactory product. A "test-first" approach can prevent 
the common practice of a client cutting off a project before significant 
testing is done just to meet an unrealistic expectation with a 
pre-determined "bottom line".

While I don't believe in 9-5 schedules, I do not believe that programmers 
should spend extensive amounts of time working. My belief is that if a team 
or individual is spending (or will spend) 60 hours or more on a project, 
additional help is needed. Also, one person should never be solely 
responsible for a project, especially large scale projects. Collaboration is 
not only key, it makes the process more enjoyable and educational.

John

>From: "Jerry Lanphear" <jerrylan@q...>
>Reply-To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
>Date: Sun, 9 Feb 2003 01:23:15 -0700
>
>I have studied the website you offered and also studied the following:
>http://www.xprogramming.com/xpmag/whatisxp.htm
>
>http://ootips.org/xp.html
>
>This site offers interesting contrarian opinions.
>http://www.softwarereality.com/ExtremeProgramming.jsp
>
>Database programming is the meat of the IT World. How does it work with XP?
>http://www.xp2002.org/atti/Hassan-Elssamadisy--ExtremeProgrammingandDatabase
>Administration.pdf
>
>Here's a university case study.  It concludes that more research is needed
>before adoption of these methods should be endorsed.
>http://www.ipd.uka.de/~muellerm/publications/icse01.pdf
>
>Now, here's my closing tidbit I will offer at the risk of again being 
>called
>ridiculous.  Why is it called "Extreme Programming"? Is it supposed to
>appeal to those who do "Extreme Sports"? Whether it's Wakeboarding,
>Freestyle Motocross, Skating or Snow Boarding extreme sportsmen are
>concerned with the performance of the INDIVIDUAL. They strive to be the 
>best
>at one particular trick.  Of course the team is most important, so why is 
>it
>so named? This is the opposite of XP which emphasizes the team.
>My past studies and use of "Method One" lead me to call that adventure
>"Extreme Documentation". I haven't seen anything at all "extreme" about XP.
>It seems to be for those who wish to hide behind the status quo, provide
>business as usual and leave no later than 5:00 PM. After all, when your 
>pair
>programmer has bad breath its really bad after 8 hours.
>
>More case study could convince me otherwise.
>
>Regards
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "John Owen" <johnlowen_bham@h...>
>To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
>Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 12:00 AM
>Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and Cons
>
>
> > Wow, you read a lot into something for someone who is supposed to be 
>able
>to
> > communicate ideas to others. I never once insinuated any of the things 
>you
> > suppose.
> >
> > Just because you haven't used XP in valuable ways, doesn't mean it isn't
> > good. It also isn't reserved for one type of project or one type of
> > personnel. Communication is key to solving problems and becoming better 
>at
> > solving problems, especially those common to software development.
> >
> > XP celebrates this communication by providing a means for all those
>involved
> > in the software development process to contribute on multiple levels as
> > their experience allows. XP is ideal for teaming together people of
>varying
> > skill levels and varying levels of understanding.
> >
> > I again suggest you extensively read the XP site I provided. 
>Additionally,
> > get off your soapbox. The statements you made towards me were not only
> > misguided, but ridiculous.
> >
> > John
> >
> > >From: "Jerry Lanphear" <jerrylan@q...>
> > >Reply-To: "Application Development"
><application_development@p...>
> > >To: "Application Development" <application_development@p...>
> > >Subject: [application_development] Re: Extreem Programming Pros and 
>Cons
> > >Date: Sat, 8 Feb 2003 19:03:12 -0700
> > >
> > >John,
> > >
> > ><<more able to adapt (i.e., not just be heads-down)>>
> > >Thats a shame.  I am not just a heads-down programmer, but the World is
> > >full
> > >of them.  These are brilliant individuals not all, but some with what 
>you
> > >would consider "personality disorders" and some  with full blown
> > >disabilities such as Autism and Aspergers Syndrome.  Many of these are
>the
> > >very people who have given us the greatest concepts and theories of the
> > >last
> > >1000 years.  I have seen the value of these people on the team, and so
>does
> > >the Americans With Disabilities Act. The more I read about XP the more 
>I
> > >realize that it plays to the average level. If you aren't like everyone
> > >else
> > >you don't belong.  This includes both the brilliant and the specialist.
> > >Most of the innovations in this World were due to the brilliant and the
> > >specialists.  I have my reservations about XP and I have had too much
> > >success with those who take a little longer to speak their brilliant
>ideas
> > >to throw them by the wayside.  Maybe I should start a company and hire
>them
> > >as you throw them out.  We'll kick butt.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


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