Wrox Programmer Forums

Need to download code?

View our list of code downloads.

Go Back   Wrox Programmer Forums > Wrox Announcements and Feedback > Forum and Wrox.com Feedback
Password Reminder
Register
Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read
Forum and Wrox.com Feedback Post your suggestions for improving the Forums or Wrox.com or questions for the staff here. "Where can I find the code for my book?"
Welcome to the p2p.wrox.com Forums.

You are currently viewing the Forum and Wrox.com Feedback section of the Wrox Programmer to Programmer discussions. This is a community of tens of thousands of software programmers and website developers including Wrox book authors and readers. As a guest, you can read any forum posting. By joining today you can post your own programming questions, respond to other developersí questions, and eliminate the ads that are displayed to guests. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free .
DRM-free e-books 300x50
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)  
Old June 20th, 2003, 08:44 AM
Friend of Wrox
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA.
Posts: 207
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by KenSchaefer
 They could be given a pass-phrase to include at the top of each message (it could be included automatically when the original message goes out to the "trusted poster"). When I reply, this pass-phrase is automatically included in the reply, and checked for by the Wrox email system (this is kinda similar to how LSoft's Listserv allows administrators to change list configuration/moderate via email).
I think Ken's idea is interesting and expanding on it may also solve another technical problem .

The problem revolves around matching the reply email back to the correct topic in the forums. In the Snitz database structure there are two tables that house postings: TOPICS and REPLY. The TOPICS table links the posting to a category and forum and contains the original topic message. The REPLY record links to the TOPIC record. This structure allows topics to be moved from one forum to another and have all the replies remain attached. This is also why when a topic is deleted, all its related replies are removed through a delete-cascade mechanism.

When the email reply comes back, we need to determine some classifying information to correctly update the database.

First: Which forum does this reply belong to? This one's relatively easy to resolve as the receiving mailbox would be associated with a forum.

Secondly: Which topic is this a reply to? This is more complicated as simply parsing the subject after the "re:" and looking for a topic match is not guaranteed to be reliable. There's no requirement in email replies that standardizes the reply subject line. Also, there is a possibility of more than one topic in a forum having the same subject.

As a possible solution, I propose expanding on Ken's idea to have the passphrase be effectively a "one-time use" posting password. This posting password would be encoded with a topic ID number, and information positively identifying the forum member that is allowed to use the password (maybe by encoding their password or some other private key contained on the MEMBERS record in the forum).

The downside to this might come from out of office replies, delivery notifications, etc.

One advantage to having to include posting password or PGP signature is that it ensures that the person replying is "really there" and solves points 1,4,5 & 6. By actively needing to add the password, automated systems that reply will be automatically blocked. By using the passphrase method, automated systems would not necessarily be blocked as they could reply by quoting the original message - which would include the passphrase. I have seen delivery notifications, out of office, and delivery warnings that work this way.

Bruce Luckcuck
Director, Applications & Support Services
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
  #22 (permalink)  
Old June 23rd, 2003, 05:36 PM
Friend of Wrox
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom.
Posts: 256
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Well, the argument for using a listserver is a strong one. Listservers do not work the way they do because the people who make them are lazy and unimaginative :). In many cases they are built on nearly three decades development work. As such they form the very best solutions to the problem of running a mass mailing system that exists, and are amongst the most highly evolved of all networking daemons. It would be hard to improve upon the vast legacy of high quality code to be found in the average listserver, and Lyis is far from an average listserver... To paraphrase that learned cove from Warwickshire: "A wheel, by any other design, is just as round".

You could, not so much BLOCK, as invalidate, the more offensive spam by simply disallowing HTML mail (only those Chinese agricultural merchants in Guandong and the people who want to sell me a septic tank ever bother to send me any PLAIN TEXT spam). It would sort out a good deal of your Web interface problems at the same time, if you blocked HTML mail, I might add!

You can't stop Out of Office replies since, as I believe Ken Schaefer has already said, the reply goes straight from the recipient to the sender: your mail engine is never involved. Short of insisting that none of your subscribers ever take holidays, you _could_ switch on the "precedence bulk" header, which will often stop this in some cases, but it will also cause many mail filtering systems to block all messages from the listserver on the basis of being suspected spam. That's the way it goes, I'm afraid, though.

As for _which_ listserver to use... Wiley should have inherited the Lyris Platinum lisence Wrox bought to run the P2P lists upon (not to mention the twin-processor Dell Poweredge with the half a Gig of RAM and the SCSI RAID array, that they were running off, and the Dell T550 Windows Advanced Server machine that fed off it - plus the ASP interface that Dave Long built for it).

Now, that Poweredge could send about four times as much mail as the cable running into Arden House could carry away - and it was managing the subscriptions of about 40 000 real individual subcribers towards the end! It also sent the Developer's Journal out every month to another 250 000 subscribers. It was a very powerful machine, and even if you no longer have it, you could replicate it very easily and get the software to run it for the cost of a phone call :). As for customising the interface... well, it was running on very powerful and immensely customisable SQL-base Postgre database on Debian. PostgreSQL supports transactions, SPROCs, and whathaveyou - and there are the Windows ODBC drivers for ASP (or you could even use a PHP interface running on another Linux box).

Certainly I agree with your general point: the less money it costs the better. Don't let people just start chucking money around in a general panic: I've seen how that story ends ;).

Anyway, take it easy, and best of luck with it,
Dan

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by KenSchaefer
 Hi Hal,

I wasn't trying to say that we should use Lyris or LSoft. I'm saying that these products already do most of what you need, so, we should look at how *they* handle these issues and replicate them, rather than rebuilding the wheel. I'm pretty sure you can still get evaluation editions of both of those two products.

Cheers
Ken

www.adOpenStatic.com
  #23 (permalink)  
Old June 23rd, 2003, 08:16 PM
Friend of Wrox
Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Central, NJ, USA.
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Walker
 Well, the argument for using a listserver is a strong one.
Not going to happen. That's the final answer. Let's stop talking about what if and use what we have the best we can.

Quote:
quote:
You could, not so much BLOCK, as invalidate, the more offensive spam by simply disallowing HTML mail (only those Chinese agricultural merchants in Guandong and the people who want to sell me a septic tank ever bother to send me any PLAIN TEXT spam). It would sort out a good deal of your Web interface problems at the same time, if you blocked HTML mail, I might add!
Since the mail FROM the server will soon be HTML formatted- and by default outlook sends messages in HTML format- this isn't really workable, unfortunately.


Quote:
quote:
You can't stop Out of Office replies since, as I believe Ken Schaefer has already said, the reply goes straight from the recipient to the sender:
This is usually the case, yes- however some servers send to the FROM: which would be the list- not the person sending it.

Quote:
quote:
As for _which_ listserver to use... Wiley should have inherited the Lyris Platinum lisence Wrox bought to run the P2P lists upon (not to mention the twin-processor Dell Poweredge with the half a Gig of RAM and the SCSI RAID array, that they were running off, and the Dell T550 Windows Advanced Server machine that fed off it - plus the ASP interface that Dave Long built for it).
If this was only true... The Lyris server was at a co-location facility and the machine was leased. The leasing company repossessed the machine WHILE the Wiley employees were trying to download the archives from the server, this is why we are missing the last two months of posts- the data was corrupt on the download and they recovered as much as they could. The version of Lyris that was being used was 2 versions old. To upgrade to a current version was expensive (Wiley uses Lyris elsewhere in their organization- specifically to manage the dummies mailing lists).

The source code for the web interface was completely lost- since there was no employees at "classic wrox" no one could provide it- and it was not downloaded off the co-located server before it was repossessed. I am told the server was actually POWERED DOWN by the co-location facility while Wiley was connected to try and get the files and source code.

They used what they had to try and get the site back up- however it was completely unstable since they didn't get everything. (You might remember the lists went back up, as was, for a day or so) The decision was made to scrap the old system- they had to start over.

Wrox had done some heavy modification to the Lyris system - not even considering the front end. There was no source code for this as it is/was in the hands of classic wrox employees that are unknown.

Wiley was faced with a decision- How do we get P2P up QUICKLY- It had been offline already for too long! Well, Lyris was going to cost a lot of money, require lots of resources, and take a long time to put up. Snitz they felt they could get online quickly and met their requirements for the web interface. At the time they only had web traffic information- and they knew it was considerable.

So, if what you said was true, that they could have just picked up the server and plugged it in somewhere else, I'd agree with you- They did the wrong thing. However, reality is quite different.

Quote:
quote:
It was a very powerful machine, and even if you no longer have it, you could replicate it very easily and get the software to run it for the cost of a phone call :).
Not quite- the lyris software was due for an expensive upgrade and the machine was long gone. The lyris system, as I said above, was customized by Wrox people. Customizations that wiley didn't have any source code for.

Quote:
quote:
As for customising the interface... well, it was running on very powerful and immensely customisable SQL-base Postgre database on Debian. PostgreSQL supports transactions, SPROCs, and whathaveyou - and there are the Windows ODBC drivers for ASP (or you could even use a PHP interface running on another Linux box).
Ah- another issue- They have nothing but windows servers at Wiley. They have no Linux experience. They have no PostgreSQL experience.

So, in short, they had no server, no source code, an out of date Lyris licence, a corrupt database, a front end that (even according to classic wrox employees) needed daily reboots to stay online and no experience with Linux.


I agree, I liked using e-mail. I thought it was better. Certainly more convenient. Faster to load. I could take it with me on my laptop. I could sort, organize, group, fiddle with, and muck around how ever I was comfortable using it. However, from my extended conversation with the "powers that be" it's been made clear to me that if there was going to be a P2P at all, this is how it was getting done.

SO here we are- with Snitz and there's no way that's changing. So, Dan, are you going to help us make it more mailing list like?


Hal Levy
NOT a Wiley/Wrox Employee- Got a job for me?
  #24 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 05:19 AM
Friend of Wrox
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom.
Posts: 256
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

[quote]quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
 
Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Daniel Walker
Quote:
 Well, the argument for using a listserver is a strong one.
Quote:
quote:
You say:
Not going to happen. That's the final answer. Let's stop talking about what if and use what we have the best we can.

Then you say:
Since the mail FROM the server will soon be HTML formatted- and by default outlook sends messages in HTML format- this isn't really workable, unfortunately.
If there's mail coming [i]from[/] a server, then it's coming from a mail listserver. So, you can:
a) write one yourself
b) use one you buy
c) use the one we bought
Quote:
Then I comment:
As for _which_ listserver to use... Wiley should have inherited the Lyris Platinum lisence Wrox bought to run the P2P lists upon (not to mention the twin-processor Dell Poweredge with the half a Gig of RAM and the SCSI RAID array, that they were running off, and the Dell T550 Windows Advanced Server machine that fed off it - plus the ASP interface that Dave Long built for it).

You reply:
If this was only true... The Lyris server was at a co-location facility and the machine was leased.
Well, unless it was moved in the last days at Wrox (quite possible, I suppose, although Stephen Biggerstaff would be the man to ask about that), I know that (as an ex-"classic" Wrox employee) the listerver machine was a big black Dell Poweredge 4100 that sat sideways-on at the end of the shelf in the server room inside Arden house. The webserver was a Dell Dimension T550 that sat beside it running Windows 2000 Advanced Server. Both machines and the software they ran were wholely owned by Wrox - at least at some time in or around Jan/Feb.

There was talk of moving it to Chicago, but I don't know if that was done. Either way, I can't imagine the Listserver or webserver were pressed back into service - they should have been in there somewhere.

Stephen Biggerstaff would know what exactly happened to the listserver. Dave Long bult the web interface. I can probably provide a contact address, if I get in contact with him first, to ask if he's interested in helping. Furthermore, there was a blue folder with documentation in it, with printouts of the ASP source code.

I know a decision seems to have been made to not use this option, but it seems a shame to dismantle what was running and maintaining 40 000 active subscriptions, for want of not knowing which machines have the source code on them. The Lyris licence might not have been the latest version (you have Wiley talking to you directly about that, so I can only accept that this was so), but I know a Platinum licence was bought for it last Autumn - a licence for the SQL-based modern Lyris, which Wrox did pay for. What's more, if classic Wrox employees told you the P2P webserver needed rebooting every day, they were mistaken. Anyone who was using this site in the last days will tell you that the lists continued running for at least a week after the closure - as Mike Kay and others commented at the time.

Wiley are the new owners, and they made much of how hard it was to tell what was what when they took over Wrox: it was certainly a mess - for understandable reasons, I hope - and I'm certainly not going to tell them how to run their new acquisition, but there are ex-Wrox, ex-glasshaus, ex-FoED employees who may well try to help, if all it takes is to identify which machines were which and where to find stuff. It's probably too late, now, though.

Dan
  #25 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 06:22 AM
Authorized User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 11
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
The Lyris server was at a co-location facility and the machine was leased.
The Lyris machine was most definitely located at Wrox's offices in Arden House, up to and for at least a couple of weeks after the closure of Wrox. I visited the building over a week after the redundancies and the machine was still there.

As for the leasing issue, as far as I was aware that particular machine was wholly owned by Wrox (unlike a number of desktop machines in the same building), though there was an issue with unpaid rent for Arden House and the remaining machines may have been sent to auction to pay off this debt.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
The source code for the web interface was completely lost- since there was no employees at "classic wrox" no one could provide it- and it was not downloaded off the co-located server before it was repossessed.
Where did http://p2p.wrox.com/archive/index.php/ come from, then? Wiley seem to have an intact copy of that. In fact, I can prove that some of the code for the web interface still exists; visit Google and search for "p2p.wrox.com xslt archive". The first hit will be "p2p.wrox.com/archive/xslt/2001-09/76.asp", if you click through from Google to that page you will receive an error at line 114 in /include/header.asp. This is because of a referrer check that I coded to try and encourage people who found the archive via Google to subscribe; it adds a couple of extra lines to the top of each page. If Wiley have the whole of /archive and /include/header.asp (and also, I guess, /include/footer.asp and a few related other files), why don't they have the rest of the web interface? The bulk of the work was done by only a handful of files located in the web root.

Incidentally, someone at Wiley might want to dig into /include/header.asp and fix that bug. From what I remember of the old web stats, at least 25% of the hits we received in the archive were referred from Google, and that error won't be giving people a good impression ;)

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
Wrox had done some heavy modification to the Lyris system - not even considering the front end. There was no source code for this as it is/was in the hands of classic wrox employees that are unknown.
We didn't make any "heavy modification" to Lyris itself; it was a pretty much bog-standard install of Lyris/PostgreSQL running on Debian 3.0. The only non-standard extra we installed was a Perl script that stripped HTML from incoming email (incidentally, you might want to use a similar script in the new email system?)

As for the "unknown wrox employees", they are myself, Dan Walker and Stephen Biggerstaff. We're all registered on this new forum, and I at least offered my services to Wiley regarding P2P by private email a while back. I heard nothing whatsoever from them, though.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
Wiley was faced with a decision- How do we get P2P up QUICKLY- It had been offline already for too long! Well, Lyris was going to cost a lot of money, require lots of resources, and take a long time to put up.
Wiley could have spoken to me, I'd have been more than willing to help. I really didn't want to see P2P disappear off the face of the 'net, seeing as I'd worked on it for over two years, but nobody bothered to get in touch with me.

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Hal Levy
SO here we are- with Snitz and there's no way that's changing.
Fair enough, that's Wiley's business decision to make. I'm still convinced it's the wrong decision, and that you won't attract the number of active, consistently good posters that we used to see in the old days of P2P. Having said that, I'm prepared to be proven wrong, though :)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 06:58 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: , , .
Posts: 2
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Hello Dan and Dave, how are you? (stephenb@orange.net for any off topic converse)

I in fact left Wrox in January but continued administering P2P on a freelance basis until the liquidation. Dan and Dave are correct, most of what Hal says seems to be inaccurate second-hand information, sorry Hal. We don't know exactly what happened to the servers from the liquidation until Wiley agreed to take over, although P2P was still functioning for news and mail access for quite a while afterwards, even when the webserver was down, one of the things which made it so robust. (No, it didn't need rebooting every day.)

As soon as I knew Wiley were taking over, I contacted Joe Wickert and offered to help, also mentioning Dave's name as the main developer. I think Joe passed our names to the Wiley tech guys, but we were never asked for our help or advice.

While I'm here I'd like to clear up one or two other misconceptions...

Since approximately November 2001, P2P has been effectively unmoderated. I only had time allowed for support issues and list monitoring, banning the occasional miscreant. One effect of this change was to increase the amount of traffic as there was no delay in posting to the list!

Despite this spam was never a problem, though Wiley are right to worry that it might become one, the amount of spam was increasing slowly. Similarly email address harvesting was becoming more noticable, but still at a low level.

I think quite a few people at Wrox didn't really understand what P2P was all about, or realise that it was more of a news and mail community than a web forum community. (One of the reasons that Wrox eventually went under...?) That misconception seems to have been passed on to Wiley. It is understandable though that if the guys at Wiley are happier with web forums and not happy with a Linux based system that they weren't interested in taking the machines, even if they had the chance.

As Dave says, I hope P2P does well with Wiley, but as many of the knowledgable people that answered a lot of questions used news or mail for the convenience, it will be an uphill struggle. The number of users and amount of traffic are still much much lower than previously.

Stephen
  #27 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 07:12 AM
Friend of Wrox
Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Central, NJ, USA.
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

[quote]quote:Originally posted by Daniel Walker
If there's mail coming [i]from[/] a server, then it's coming from a mail listserver. So, you can:
a) write one yourself
b) use one you buy
c) use the one we bought
[quote]quote:

Dan, as you know, Snitz sends e-mail already built into the package. It does not have a method of receiving e-mail and turning it into a post on the forum. So it isn't a "listserver" in the true sense of the word. It's, in my opinion, a web based forum with e-mail notification.


Quote:
quote:
Well, unless it was moved in the last days at Wrox (quite possible, I suppose, although Stephen Biggerstaff would be the man to ask about that), I know that (as an ex-"classic" Wrox employee) the listerver machine was a big black Dell Poweredge 4100 that sat sideways-on at the end of the shelf in the server room inside Arden house. The webserver was a Dell Dimension T550 that sat beside it running Windows 2000 Advanced Server. Both machines and the software they ran were wholely owned by Wrox - at least at some time in or around Jan/Feb.
This is different than I was told by the people at Wiley. The technical people (James and Bruce) told me the information that I have passed on here. So the question becomes - Did the liquidators not give them everything they paid for? Did they sell the hardware out from under Wiley? Or did Wiley leave some parts out of the discussion I had with them?

Quote:
quote:
Stephen Biggerstaff would know what exactly happened to the listserver. Dave Long bult the web interface. I can probably provide a contact address, if I get in contact with him first, to ask if he's interested in helping. Furthermore, there was a blue folder with documentation in it, with printouts of the ASP source code.
Now, if it was up to me (and it's not, I don't even get to sit in on their meetings) if all the source code and the archives and all that are really available then I would be looking into switching back.

Personally, in that case, I would propose that this forum stay up in it's current form- and the web front end (which, I am told, needed reboots daily) be re-developed and in this way the front end would be built upon Lyris. Personally I think it much easier to build a web front end on the server than the other way around.

However, it's not up to me...

[quote]
I know a decision seems to have been made to not use this option, but it seems a shame to dismantle what was running and maintaining 40 000 active subscriptions, for want of not knowing which machines have the source code on them. The Lyris licence might not have been the latest version (you have Wiley talking to you directly about that, so I can only accept that this was so), but I know a Platinum licence was bought for it last Autumn - a licence for the SQL-based modern Lyris, which Wrox did pay for.
{/quote]

It seems like there's information that (at this time) all I can say is unknown to the guys at Wiley. I would hope if they had all the information (and got all of it from the liquidators) that they were told- however they might not have been.


Quote:
What's more, if classic Wrox employees told you the P2P webserver needed rebooting every day, they were mistaken. Anyone who was using this site in the last days will tell you that the lists continued running for at least a week after the closure - as Mike Kay and others commented at the time.
Yes, I do know it ran for a while after the liquidation was announced- however, SOMEONE rebooted it a few times in that period, because there were outages during the weeks following the announcement and the web site returned. A simple AT job could reboot the webserver nightly, however, with no employees needed.

Quote:
there are ex-Wrox, ex-glasshaus, ex-FoED employees who may well try to help, if all it takes is to identify which machines were which and where to find stuff. It's probably too late, now, though.
Personally, I don't know that they got any machine to work with. I know James and Bruce were working remotely on the machines- I think wiley didn't get things like physical machines.... Only the contents and then they had to grab them remotely. However, I will leave that to them to comment on- as I don't really know... If your information is correct, it seems like quite a bit of value was lost when the transition took place. Value that didn't have to be lost.


Hal Levy
NOT a Wiley/Wrox Employee- Got a job for me?
  #28 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 07:39 AM
Friend of Wrox
Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Central, NJ, USA.
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by David Long
Where did http://p2p.wrox.com/archive/ come from, then? Wiley seem to have an intact copy of that. In fact, I can prove that some of the code for the web interface still exists; visit Google and search for "p2p.wrox.com xslt archive". The first hit will be "p2p.wrox.com/archive/xslt/2001-09/76.asp", if you click through from Google to that page you will receive an error at line 114 in /include/header.asp. This is because of a referrer check that I coded to try and encourage people who found the archive via Google to subscribe; it adds a couple of extra lines to the top of each page. If Wiley have the whole of /archive and /include/header.asp (and also, I guess, /include/footer.asp and a few related other files), why don't they have the rest of the web interface? The bulk of the work was done by only a handful of files located in the web root.
David, I can't answer that. Hopefully some of the Wiley people can. I have noticed that parts of the web interface seem to have survived in some places. I am told, however I don't know for sure, that most of the last two months of messages are missing from the archive. I do know none of my April posts on design_patterns are in the archive.

Quote:
quote:
We didn't make any "heavy modification" to Lyris itself; it was a pretty much bog-standard install of Lyris/PostgreSQL running on Debian 3.0. The only non-standard extra we installed was a Perl script that stripped HTML from incoming email (incidentally, you might want to use a similar script in the new email system?)
Interesting to know David. I personally at this point feel a bit out on a limb-- as I was told all these items by the wiley staff and it seems as if there's some information that was either not told to them or that they were unwilling to tell me. and yes, I plan on having to use something similar in the new system.

I even asked them dead-on about why the Lyris system (and web site) came back online for a short time. They told me they got some of it and tried to get it running and they couldn't keep it online and that the web interface was crashing.

Quote:
quote:
As for the "unknown wrox employees", they are myself, Dan Walker and Stephen
Biggerstaff. We're all registered on this new forum, and I at least offered my services to Wiley regarding P2P by private email a while back. I heard nothing whatsoever from them, though.
Um, I know I have not spoken to you or Stephen or Dan directly about the P2P stuff and the machines and reboots. I spoke to Jan about the webserver at one point and he told me that he thought it was rebooted daily because there were stability issues. However, at this point, I am not so confident I am remembering everything correctly.

If this is incorrect, I certainly don't want to be a person on record insulting your work as being unstable when it wasn't!

Quote:
quote:
Wiley could have spoken to me, I'd have been more than willing to help. I really didn't want to see P2P disappear off the face of the 'net, seeing as I'd worked on it for over two years, but nobody bothered to get in touch with me.
I can't speak for them- Perhaps there was a reason they couldn't. You say you emailed them, so I expect they knew who you were- I really don't know. But the more I hear from you, Dan and Stephen the more I want to hear more from Wiley....


Quote:
quote:Fair enough, that's Wiley's business decision to make. I'm still convinced it's the wrong decision, and that you won't attract the number of active, consistently good posters that we used to see in the old days of P2P. Having said that, I'm prepared to be proven wrong, though :)
This is agree with 200%. I do NOT like that they moved to a web forum. I can tolerate it- and I have been- but I liked e-mail SO much better. The involvement was better from both experts and the authors.


Is it true that p2p was actively moderated to keep spam off the list? And if so- how did it run until 5/2 (the last time I got a message from the server) without that moderation- since there were no employees.... More questions than answers it seems.

I'm thinking it's time for me to stop defending wiley and let the employees do that, if they want. It's not my company, they don't even pay me a salary (and I could use one!) The fact is, I am interested in getting help for my questions and answer those I can, and if this is that forum- so be it. Perhaps APRESS will come out with a Developers forum using a true mail listserv.


Hal Levy
NOT a Wiley/Wrox Employee- Got a job for me?
  #29 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 07:50 AM
Friend of Wrox
Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24 Points: 3,489, Level: 24
Activity: 0%
Activity: 0% Activity: 0% Activity: 0%
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Central, NJ, USA.
Posts: 1,102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
quote:Originally posted by StephenB
I in fact left Wrox in January but continued administering P2P on a freelance basis until the liquidation. Dan and Dave are correct, most of what Hal says seems to be inaccurate second-hand information, sorry Hal.
I freely admit I have information that's second-hand. I have been told things by the tech guys at Wiley- I assume their information is correct and look forward to them responding to the questions you, David and Dan have raised in this thread- since I can't. I retract everything that you guys say isn't accurate- since you were there and I wasn't.

Quote:
quote:
As soon as I knew Wiley were taking over, I contacted Joe Wickert and offered to help, also mentioning Dave's name as the main developer. I think Joe passed our names to the Wiley tech guys, but we were never asked for our help or advice.
This raises a huge problem for me as I was given the impression they had no idea who from classic wrox could assist them.

Quote:
quote:
Since approximately November 2001, P2P has been effectively unmoderated. I only had time allowed for support issues and list monitoring, banning the occasional miscreant. One effect of this change was to increase the amount of traffic as there was no delay in posting to the list!
See, that's what I said, I said that there was too much traffic and my posts went up too fast. The impression I was given was there was a moderation team- obviously this is wrong.

Quote:
quote:
I think quite a few people at Wrox didn't really understand what P2P was all about, or realise that it was more of a news and mail community than a web forum community. (One of the reasons that Wrox eventually went under...?) That misconception seems to have been passed on to Wiley. It is understandable though that if the guys at Wiley are happier with web forums and not happy with a Linux based system that they weren't interested in taking the machines, even if they had the chance.
The only volume numbers they had were from the website- which they felt was considerable. (or so they told me) Personally I think what made Wrox go under was the complete loss of focus on what made them great in the first place. A series of clearly defined books that took you from novice to Expert in 3 or 4 books. In the end, Wrox was pushing out books that had so much overlap, we had no idea what to buy- so I just stopped buying books from Wrox.. I was buying more and more APRESS and MSPress books over the last year because I was just confused by what WROX was putting out there.

Quote:
quote:
As Dave says, I hope P2P does well with Wiley, but as many of the knowledgable people that answered a lot of questions used news or mail for the convenience, it will be an uphill struggle. The number of users and amount of traffic are still much much lower than previously.
Stephen, unfortunately I think too many knowledgeable people were lost. On the old forums my postings were barely a speck. I certainly wasn't answering as many questions as I do now- of course, that was because I didn't need to, so many others were out there answering them.

Hal Levy
NOT a Wiley/Wrox Employee- Got a job for me?
  #30 (permalink)  
Old June 24th, 2003, 08:10 AM
Friend of Wrox
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: , , United Kingdom.
Posts: 256
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

You will forgive any tone of irate outrage that may appear to come through from us: we just want to help and we want to set the record straight. There has been much made by Wiley of the "state of chaos" they discovered at Arden House - especially with ex-authors - and this does not reflect well upon a very hard-working and dedicated workforce, as I'm sure you will realise.

The truth,as Philip K Dick once observerd, is "that which does not go away when you stop believing in it". There are several things I have stopped believing in since my time at Wrox ended, but the truth still remains the same and I recognise no gain in seeing it abused - even if only through misunderstanding.

Personally, I hope one day that I will work again in an environment surrounded by such a high density of gifted, clever, good natured, honest, and hard working people as I found a Wrox.

Lastly, (and this is merely a tongue-in-cheek observation and is not intended as a parthian shot, I hope you understand) it is perhaps unwise to advertise the fact that a computer programming publisher has "nothing but windows servers", has "no Linux experience", "no PostgreSQL experience", et cetera :).

Dan
(who regards the phrase "Classic Wrox" in much the same light as teh phrase "Classic Mac OS", and regards both as something best remembered with affection, rather than actually experienced :).
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
visual studio system requirements harpua ASP.NET 1.0 and 1.1 Basics 7 April 14th, 2005 06:11 PM
How to Calculate minimun system requirements gbianchi Pro VB 6 1 October 20th, 2004 12:46 PM
System requirements for MySQL zmark MySQL 2 August 21st, 2004 07:46 AM
JSP system requirements? vauneen JSP Basics 2 August 9th, 2004 01:45 AM
what are J2EE system requirements? rcald J2EE 2 December 22nd, 2003 10:21 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2013 John Wiley & Sons, Inc.