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-   BOOK: ASP.NET 4 Website Programming Problem Design Solution (http://p2p.wrox.com/forumdisplay.php?f=540)
-   -   Now open: ASP.NET 4.0 Problem - Design - Solution EAP (http://p2p.wrox.com/showthread.php?t=77761)

Lee Dumond December 11th, 2009 09:28 PM

Now open: ASP.NET 4.0 Problem - Design - Solution EAP
 
The ASP.NET 4.0 Website Programming: Problem - Design - Solution Early Access Program is now open.

Here's your chance to have a major impact on the next book and application in the ASP.NET Website Programming: Problem - Design - Solution series, and learn a lot about ASP.NET 4.0 along the way.

http://leedumond.com/blog/wanna-help-me-write-a-book/

I am really looking forward to getting as much feedback as possible from all of you.

briandre December 12th, 2009 11:11 AM

Will it be in C# or VB?
 
I hope it will be in C#, as in the previous edition by Marco Bellinaso.

Also, please make the code example easier to read. The layout of the code examples in the ASP.NET 2.0 one is very good, but those in this Chris Love's one is quite bad, e.g. the example code in p.242 with a lot of unnecessary left indent, making a lot of unnecessary line wrap.

Lee Dumond December 12th, 2009 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briandre (Post 250933)
I hope it will be in C#, as in the previous edition by Marco Bellinaso.

It is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by briandre (Post 250933)
Also, please make the code example easier to read.

I'll try my best.

Thanks for the suggestions!

docluv December 13th, 2009 09:38 PM

I was not thrilled with the way the WROX template did code formatting and I did spend a lot of extra time trying to get those things to layout better. So I do apologize for that. I did have them go back and relayout several pages because they did not format the way I left them etc. But sadly that is one of the problems you get into when you deal with producing a book with a major publisher.

There is a C# version of the application's code, http://thebeerhouse.codeplex.com/Sou...leCommits.aspx

Lee Dumond January 12th, 2010 05:07 PM

In case anyone is interested, there is a live running version of CycleMania (the application that will accompany ASP.NET 4.0 Website Programming: Problem - Design - Solution) that you can play with without having to download any source code:

http://cyclemania.dotnetpro.co.uk/

The live site is updated via continuous integration on each build. New builds are being released about once per day.

It's not the fastest server in the world, and it's running in a VM, so if the db times out just hit it again. ;)

jminatel January 12th, 2010 05:20 PM

Thanks for everyone's interest in Lee's ASP.NET 4 book. To keep the forums organized and not overwhelm the 3.5 book forum with 4 issues, I've created the ASP.NET 4 category, this new forum for Lee's book, and moved the existing "preview" thread here.

Lee Dumond January 12th, 2010 05:25 PM

Thanks Jim, good idea. [:D]

Will January 13th, 2010 03:32 PM

I would definitely take into account the reviews on amazon for the 3.5 website as they did put me off buying the book in the end.

I think a section on the ADO.NET entities framework would be good.

Having not purchased a book from this series before I do not know if they include exercises with answers but if they do then put a chapter in with the answers at the back instead of making them downloadable.

The downloadable answers don't tend to include explanations to the solutions which the "Answer" chapters do and this is very helpful.

Cheers,

Lee Dumond January 13th, 2010 03:47 PM

Will,

This book will pretty much pick up where Marco's ASP.NET book left off. That means a basic familiarity with 2.0 will be all that is required, so you won't be missing anything from not having read the 3.5 book.

There will be information on EF.

As far as exercises go, there won't be any. It's not a classic "textbook" per se.

In each chapter, there are three sections: the Problem section, the Design section, and the Solution section.

In "Problem", we think about the goal we want to accomplish or feature(s) we want to implement.

In "Design", we look at the different ways to approach the "Problem". We discuss the pros and cons of each approach, then settle on one.

In "Solution", I show how to implement the chosen "Design" to solve the "Problem".

Does that make sense?

Will January 13th, 2010 04:18 PM

Yes that makes sense.

Cheers, good luck with the writing!

yevi January 21st, 2010 08:53 AM

Wow great news!
I am looking forward to buy this book!

Is there a publishing date?

Lee Dumond January 21st, 2010 10:27 AM

To bhe published later this year, sometime toward Fall.

yevi January 22nd, 2010 05:32 AM

What new techniques are you going to show in this book?

Lee Dumond January 22nd, 2010 01:04 PM

I hope to get most of the new ASP.NET 4 stuff in -- routing, ViewState optimization, ClientIDMode, Charting, new template features ofr rich controls, the new Menu control, the new Web Deployment model, etc.

You'll see a lot of C# 4.0 stuff in there too, along with quite a lot of LINQ to Objects and LINQ to Entities, and most of the new EF 4 features.

There will be extensive use of jQuery, both for DOM manipulation, and showing its usefullness an a client-side AJAX library.

I haven't really decided if I'm gonna use ASMX or WCF for services yet.

There are some other goodies thrown in there too. I show how to roll your own theme system that let's you associate client-side script with themes (that can be totally different on a theme-by-theme basis). There will also be a really extensive Administration module that will dig way into the Configuration API, and will let you do things like alter custom configuration attributes online.

Really just scratching the surface here though. [:)]

yevi January 23rd, 2010 04:44 AM

I have a feeling that this book will be a bestseller.
Can't wait :)

kiwibrit February 18th, 2010 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briandre (Post 250933)
I hope it will be in C#, as in the previous edition by Marco Bellinaso......

Why the preference for C#?

Lee Dumond February 18th, 2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kiwibrit (Post 253775)
Why the preference for C#?

Most (non-beginner) .NET programming books are written in C#, aren't they?

As far as the audience for this book goes, I believe C# is by far the preferred language.

kiwibrit February 18th, 2010 05:16 PM

Mm. I have a nagging feeling I am going to have to switch - which is a bit of a bind. When I migrated (for the most part) from php, I did a mental flip of the coin and went for Visual Basic - perhaps harking back to dim college memories long ago. I am still in fairly early stages of asp.net - but already I am beginning to think I goofed.

Lee Dumond February 18th, 2010 06:25 PM

I wouldn't necessarily say you goofed at all. [:)] Competent devs make it a point to learn both.

That being said, I really think that in order to progress beyond the beginning stages, you need to learn C#. That isn't because C# is a more "legitimate" language or that it has more or better features. It is because C# is the language that advanced devs communicate in, and is the language that most non-beginner books and tutorials are written in.

Most of the documentation on MSDN is included in both VB and C#. You wouldn't have any problems there. However, once you venture out beyond that area, VB code examples are very hard to come by. It would be like an English speaker asking for directons in Tokyo. It might be a long time before you find anything you understand and make use of.

C# is not that hard. In fact, I think it's easier than VB -- it's more concise and to the point, whthout all the End this and End that. Bite the bullet and spend a week or two and learn it; it'll be the best thing you ever did for your career.

Web June 15th, 2011 05:26 AM

Whats happened to the book ?
 
Hi,
I just checked out of interest to see if there existed yet an updated version of the ASP.Net Website problem design solution series of books. What's happened to the proposed 4.0 version ? - is it still going ahead ?

Over the years I've bought them all, though must admit the last one, 3.5, fell short of my expectations after the excellent 2.0 book. Amongst other gripes I found the switch from presenting the code in c# to vb particularly frustrating, and was happy to read that you intend to write the next one using c#. I'd really like to see more about newer features available including windows identity foundation if possible. Most of my work is in creating company intranet sites with some public access sites so it would be good to have some thought given to that aspect rather than purely public.

jminatel June 15th, 2011 10:22 AM

Unfortunately, the author ran into some issues that prevented timely completion. By the time that happened, it was really too late to restart with a new author for 4.0.

We'll look at this again for the next release. We're firm believers that this kind of book is even more valuable now to ASP.NET devs but I've got to admit, it's a ton of very hard work. Harder than writing an app. Harder than writing a book. Harder than the sum of the work for each.

Web June 15th, 2011 12:11 PM

Thats a shame - in my opinion the format of these books is perfect, and the descriptive style of 2.0 I found particularly engaging and easy to read. Most books are too wordy/dry/lacking real world scenarios etc. I learn best by example, and by also having the reasoning behind the design patterns / UI patterns chosen to solve the real world problems, as well as those considered and rejected, I find more valuable than the nuts and bolts code (though its still handy to focus on the new stuff). Web development covers such a broad range of skills required (IIS, SQL, intranets, extranets, project management methodologies and artefacts, architecture/design patterns, authentication/security, UI design/patterns, graphics skills, CSS, javascript, etc etc). I understand it must be extremely hard to write one of these books (whats Marco doing these days?). I'll look forward to the next book whenever it may come!

Lee Dumond June 15th, 2011 12:37 PM

I really did want to finish this book, and got about halfway through, but there were several personal/health issues (I will spare you the details) that prevented me from making the deadline.

That being said... I will say a couple of things about this book, and the series in general.

The 2.0 version is still very relevant. There is very, very little in that book that would not still apply to WebForms development today. Believe it or not, at its basic core, WebForms has hardly changed from 2.0 to 4.0. Sure, the preferred data access strategy has changed, and UI design using CSS has changed, and the use of client-side libraries like jQuery has changed... but those things aren't really part of ASP.NET at all.

If I were Wrox (and I say this in all sincerity), I would advise against publishing a follow-up in this series based on WebForms, now or in the future. I would also advise against readers investing any more time or money in learning WebForms. WebForms is a legacy technology. I would strongly advise current WebForms developers to learn and start using MVC exclusively if at all possible.

Wrox has some really great MVC books. The new one from Phil Haack, et. al. (manager of the Microsoft MVC team) will be awesome. If you're looking to really advance your skills, buy that one, or one of the other many fine Wrox MVC books.

Web June 16th, 2011 05:34 AM

Thanks for the reply, I've been meaning to look into MVC within asp.net for a while (..I started my career as a java developer using MVC framework struts way back!) - its just sometimes hard due to time constraints to get out of your comfort zone of churning out apps based on the same framework using webforms! Whilst the previous books were based on webforms, I agree that better ways are constantly evolving for ASP.Net and I think this series should help steer the readers in the direction of those new best practices. Its easy to buy books on individual technical topics, but less easy to get a book like these on how to practically go from initial concept to deploying an application that would contain typical elements found in every app (an easier story to read that everyone can engage with), with all associated considerations and getting a sense of all the new stuff to leverage. As time moves on there are always newer versions of IIS/SQL server with new features to take advantage of, new 3rd party frameworks that can be leveraged, new .net features and frameworks/patterns, new browsers / mobile devices to consider - just a bewildering never ending range of things to consider (and try and stay informed of to even be aware of). I think the format of these books are good at at least furthering awareness of the best practice and new stuff of the day and distilling that into an approach to achieve a practical objective.

Lee Dumond June 16th, 2011 12:15 PM

"Time constraints" are the #1 reason I hear from people not switching to MVC. Pardon me for saying so, but it's just not a valid excuse.

The basics of the MVC pattern can be learned in an afternoon. Going through the tutorials at asp.net/mvc is more than enough to get you up to speed.

And remember, MVC is built on top of ASP.NET, so all of your existing knowledge is still valid. Same data access, same IIS, same everything else.

I think the PDS series should continue, but I just don't think it should use WebForms is all I'm saying.

Web June 16th, 2011 01:06 PM

Well, unfortunately its not just time to learn MVC which I agree is fairly straight forward to understand - it sometimes requires extra effort in change management to debate/review/justify/implement new standard architectures/frameworks for all developers to comply with within an organisation that is fairly rigid in its standard approach, on top of dealing with all the urgent crap of the day in an under resourced department which is the main time and effort. I'm not disagreeing with you about MVC which is a separate debate - I'm just trying to highlight the merits of the general approach of the PDS series in the hope it will continue. The fact that up till now the books chose webforms is just a detail. I agree it shouldn't be set in stone if there's now a better way that you clearly believe includes MVC, and would be a great chapter in the next version of the book describing the pros and cons of each as a design choice and justifying the choice of MVC. For me that's the main value of the book right there that makes it worth its weight in gold - how design choices are made to meet typical requirements and arrive at best practice solutions. I've bought tons of books over the years on particular topics but I've found this series by far the best value. Once you have the big picture view its then far easier for the reader to put everything into context and then drill down to source any extra information on particular topics outside the scope of the book as required.

Lee Dumond June 16th, 2011 01:26 PM

I agree with you on the value of the series overall.

There is a detailed chapter in the Nick Berardi Wrox MVC book on choosing between MVC and WebForms, which I believe is actually re-posted on his blog (coderjournal.com), so it's free for the reading. There are also some resources at the asp.net website

Keep in mind that I don't agree 100% with everything that Nick wrote, but that being said, there are still some excellent insights in there.

I believe there are only 2 main reasons one might want/need to stay with WebForms. One is organizational inertia, which you already addressed. The other is if one lacks knowledge of HTTP, HTML and CSS. You really do need a solid grasp on that stuff to work effectively with MVC, as you don't have server controls or postbacks to rely on.

Web June 16th, 2011 03:06 PM

I wouldn't say its lack of knowledge either that developers may chose webforms over mvc for example. Any design choice is to be considered in the context of the immediate and possible future requirements. Another reason to choose webforms is in quickly achieving a simple clear cut urgent business objective. The business user doesn't care if you've adopted MVC, they just want results fast and webforms makes it easy to throw up a page or two that lets them browse the data they want, and usually about 2-3 years later that little app will be completely superseded by something else anyway. The MVC pattern has been around before ASP.Net though sometimes you'd think Microsoft has just invented it and we now all need to change our 'old' clunky ways to the 'new'. Unfortunately there will never be one magic bullet solution for all problems.

Lee Dumond June 16th, 2011 03:21 PM

Well, I mention this because one of the original objectives of WebForms was (and still is) to abstract away things like the request pipeline, markup, design, and so forth. If one doesn't have strong knowledge of those things, then that is an argument in favor of WebForms. That being said, if one doesn't have that knowledge, maybe that person shouldn't be programming for the web in the first place.

In response to your comment, I would maintain that using WebForms to "quickly achieve a simple clear cut urgent business objective" is a straw man argument. With the MVC scaffolding tools available in Visual Studio there is absolutely no time advantage in using WebForms at all. None whatsoever. And once you get beyond very basic CRUD operations, the time spent in fighting the WebForms abstractions quickly becomes a time-suck in itself. I can honestly say that MVC lets me be far, far more productive than WebForms ever did.

And nobody, especially me, is claiming MVC is original to Microsoft, or is a "magic bullet" of any kind. Bit it IS a vast improvement over WebForms in virtually every way possible. I don't think there is much argument over that.

Web June 16th, 2011 05:13 PM

Sorry, I don't want to appear as arguing against your points about MVC - just felt sucked into attempting to play devils advocate as you seem so disparaging of anyone using webforms!. I agree that there are better application frameworks to use including Microsoft's implementation of the MVC pattern.

I just want to reiterate my original point and emphasize how much I value the format of these series of books in the hope that my appreciation, as well as those of others will convince Wrox to continue the series. It would also be good if they could apply the same problem/design/solution structure and writing style as 2.0 to other more advanced topics.

In the meantime I've put in a preorder for the new MVC book [;)]

Lee Dumond June 16th, 2011 05:21 PM

I am sure Wrox is not giving up on the PDS format. As Jim pointed out though, it is an extremely difficult format to write for. It's more than twice as difficult than writing a regular book, because you need to develop a full-fledged application as well as well as write the book, and you have to tie them both together as well. I would love to take another shot at it sometime... maybe when MVC 4 comes out. ;)

Web June 17th, 2011 04:34 AM

I realise it must be very hard to write and a lot of work. Maybe another idea would be to break it down into separate books - one main one that goes through a comprehensive architecture including the common elements found in every app (design patterns, structuring the code to enable team work / modular extensions, security options, layout options, styling options etc. Instead of building a fully fledged application for the book to try and cover all bases, this core book would just provide a basic app with example CRUD implementation on different devices, managing data from different sources. This book could then form the core application framework upon which each separate book in the series could then focus on a specific real world site type and associated typical feature sets -ie a book for building a blog, a book for e-commerce, a book for a company public site / intranet site, a book for optimising for phones etc etc. Each book in the range could just focus on typical features and how those feature sets would plug into the main framework described in the core book. If all books followed the same consistent PDS format and writing style - that would be my idea of the perfect range of books! Still a lot of work overall but would maybe enable quicker turnaround of individual books, enable separate authors with particular strengths to contribute and would cater to a wider audience.

intesols June 20th, 2011 06:56 AM

Search Engine Optimization Melbourne
 
I would definitely consider the Amazon reviews for the website 3.5, and that put me out to buy the book at the end. I think a section on ADO.NET Entity Framework would be good. Not having bought a book of this series before I do not know if it includes exercises with answers, but if they can put a chapter in the answers in the back instead of making them downloadable. The answers do not usually download include explanations of the solutions of the "Response" sections to make and this is very useful. Regards,

http://www.intesols.com.au/services/...imisation.html

jok14 July 11th, 2011 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Dumond (Post 252568)
I hope to get most of the new ASP.NET 4 stuff in -- routing, ViewState optimization, ClientIDMode, Charting, new template features ofr rich controls, the new Menu control, the new Web Deployment model, etc.

You'll see a lot of C# 4.0 stuff in there too, along with quite a lot of LINQ to Objects and LINQ to Entities, and most of the new EF 4 features.

There will be extensive use of jQuery, both for DOM manipulation, and showing its usefullness an a client-side AJAX library.

I haven't really decided if I'm gonna use ASMX or WCF for services yet.

There are some other goodies thrown in there too. I show how to roll your own theme system that let's you associate client-side script with themes (that can be totally different on a theme-by-theme basis). There will also be a really extensive Administration module that will dig way into the Configuration API, and will let you do things like alter custom configuration attributes online.

Really just scratching the surface here though. [:)]

Could I ask when to release? yes, It will be great to bring WCF for services.
I think it can be separated in 2 books, as too much tehnologies bring.

And I just view the previous comments, it will be delayed?
I am pretty sure, I will be the first buyer. thanks for 2.0 version. Please ASAP

The_Ryan July 26th, 2012 03:55 AM

I like the way you are dedicated to your work, in your books do include the things around ASP.Net. like CMS and other tools which make ASP.Net easier than it was ever.

briandre July 26th, 2012 04:16 AM

???
 
It has been almost three years since the author announced this book. I don't think he will get this book done.

Staceysmith July 23rd, 2013 04:19 AM

Hey is that book done or what..??or yet to be..?


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