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BOOK: ASP.NET MVC Website Programming Problem Design Solution ISBN: 9780470410950
This is the forum to discuss the Wrox book ASP.NET MVC Website Programming Problem Design Solution by Nicholas Berardi, Al Katawazi, and Marco Bellinaso; ISBN: 9780470410950
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:15 PM
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There have been several great ASP.NET MVC sessions here at Mix09. One of the common themes all of the presenters are hitting is that MVC is not a replcament for web Forms. That is, MVC isn't for everyone, it isn't for every project. I think a lot of ASP.NET developers will continue to use Web Forms for most of their projects.
MVC and Web Forms each have their advantages, but they also both build on a common ASP.NET base. I didn't see her session but I heard that Rachel Appel's session on choosing between MVC and Web Forms was excellent. It isn't posted online yet but it should be soon at:
http://videos.visitmix.com/MIX09/
And once it's there, I'd highly recommend it. Along with the Phil Haack and Scott Hanselman ASP.NET MVC sessions too.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old March 20th, 2009, 12:48 PM
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I'm sorry about your experience with MVC. When I first started developing with it, everything took forever to do because it was so alien to me. Now I actually roll my eyes when I have to do a webform app :D. When your used to something and your good at it, everything comes really easy, and new stuff take time. The question is this, is the investment in time worth it to you.

I can promise you that you can absolutely do RAD with the MVC Framework, I am good with both MVC and Webforms and it takes me the same amount of time to do either. The downside for me with the webforms is that I usually have more bugs in my webforms apps and I can't easily use all the great JQuery controls (You have to create generic handlers to feed them their data).

The other really nice part about MVC is that the HTML is a lot cleaner, and I suspect you are going to get much better performance with MVC. Again is it worth it to switch, totally up to you. As I tell everyone though, the best way to learn is to do a real project with MVC. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by Avraham Nahir View Post

I've just thrown my hands up in the air and said WTF!

I understand that MVC's main point is maintenance of large code bases. But I'm not there yet. I'm a single (though married :-) programmer starting to build his one-man-job first web site.

I want RAD. I want third party components. I want separation of my (C#) code and HTML markup. I want a tool that will make me work faster and cleaner.

I think you've just covinced me to give up MVC!
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Old March 21st, 2009, 06:27 PM
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Thank you for your answer, Al.

Re my experience with MVC - I don't have any yet. Just what I gleamed from this thread.

From what Jiang and Doug wrote I understood that you can't have controls - you have to code everything from scratch using HTML and Java-script.

Now, giving due respect to patterns and specifically to MVC, the basic benefit of object centering is using other people's work - components.

I must be a missing something. I just can't believe we won't have reuse in MVC.
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Old March 21st, 2009, 07:32 PM
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I've been thinking pretty deeply about the reuse issue. One of the criticisms of the original BeerHouse project was it wasn't modular. Unlike say WordPress where you can download and install different modules as you need them. I believe this can be achieved using the MVC framework and heres how.

Each of your controllers could be their own dll, that would be easy enough to do. You have the controller use the base namespace of the application so it could be dropped into any project. In the installer it would drop the support files into the project such as views, images, scripts, ect.. There could even be something that automatically installs database tables and information into your projects database.

Real life experience I have actually done this for two projects, I grabbed TheBeerHouse MVC security controller and dropped it into two totally seperate MVC projects and it worked like a charm. So I believe reuse is totally possible.

The other issue is not having the drag and drop controls. Its true your going to hardly ever use the designer. On the other hand there are piles of jQuery controls you can use that usuallly work a lot better than server controls. Most people these days are demanding AJAX in their projects and avoiding MS AJAX and server controls has cleared up so many bugs for me and has also improved application performance at the same time. Its definately worth a look.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraham Nahir View Post
Thank you for your answer, Al.

Re my experience with MVC - I don't have any yet. Just what I gleamed from this thread.

From what Jiang and Doug wrote I understood that you can't have controls - you have to code everything from scratch using HTML and Java-script.

Now, giving due respect to patterns and specifically to MVC, the basic benefit of object centering is using other people's work - components.

I must be a missing something. I just can't believe we won't have reuse in MVC.
  #55 (permalink)  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 07:25 PM
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Well, at least FCKeditor can be integrated. So controls CAN be used...

http://www.blog.valenticabd.com/2008...in-aspnet.html

I was going to give up on MVC, as I was obviously NOT going to develop my own editor.

Avi
  #56 (permalink)  
Old March 22nd, 2009, 08:27 PM
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Why not use this in MVC?

http://tinymce.moxiecode.com/

Works great, we used it in TheBeerHouse project, you can check out our source code in codeplex.



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Originally Posted by Avraham Nahir View Post
Well, at least FCKeditor can be integrated. So controls CAN be used...

http://www.blog.valenticabd.com/2008...in-aspnet.html

I was going to give up on MVC, as I was obviously NOT going to develop my own editor.

Avi
  #57 (permalink)  
Old March 23rd, 2009, 03:36 AM
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Al, thanks for the tip!

Which one I'll use - TinyMCE or FCKeditor - depends on several issues, most important of which is Hebrew RTL support.

What is important, however, is that now I understand I can use BOTH with MVC. And I'm totally mixed up!

Can I, or can't I, use third party components with MVC?

Initially I was sure that I would be able to. But then I understood from this thread that Microsoft designed MVC so badly that third party components CAN'T be used. And to verify this I went to a vendor's site (Infragistics) and saw that, indeed, they had no MVC version of their components. As they say: "The two frameworks are much different and require different approaches, and hence different components." and "Our current ASP.NET controls aren't designed for use with ASP.NET MVC. ".

Now it appears that at least two components CAN be used...

I'm at a loss :-(

Avi
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 10:32 AM
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Any of the server controls made for ASP.NET are probably out. MVC Framework is not dependant on server controls, if you think about it, thats really the most efficient way to go. But I can understand you still want your applications to look sharp. Good news is there are far more controls that are completely free that WILL work with the MVC Framework. Here is a great place to start.

http://extjs.com/products/extjs/

I like using their grid control, its pretty awsome but they have tons of other nice controls in there as well. Another favorite of mine is this validator control.

http://jquery.bassistance.de/validate/demo/

All you do is add the class="required" to any html element and it validates it for you. It can also check credit card numbers, dates, numerics, regex, and specific lengths, very powerful and slick.

Here is a control that does autocompletion for dropdowns, like the kind you would see using google.

http://jquery.bassistance.de/autocomplete/demo/

These are just my favorites, there are tons of other ones you can explore. Anything that can be done with infragistics can be recreated with other free controls that are out there, you just have to look. Hope this helps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Avraham Nahir View Post
Al, thanks for the tip!

Which one I'll use - TinyMCE or FCKeditor - depends on several issues, most important of which is Hebrew RTL support.

What is important, however, is that now I understand I can use BOTH with MVC. And I'm totally mixed up!

Can I, or can't I, use third party components with MVC?

Initially I was sure that I would be able to. But then I understood from this thread that Microsoft designed MVC so badly that third party components CAN'T be used. And to verify this I went to a vendor's site (Infragistics) and saw that, indeed, they had no MVC version of their components. As they say: "The two frameworks are much different and require different approaches, and hence different components." and "Our current ASP.NET controls aren't designed for use with ASP.NET MVC. ".

Now it appears that at least two components CAN be used...

I'm at a loss :-(

Avi
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old March 23rd, 2009, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al_Katawazi View Post
Good news is there are far more controls that are completely free that WILL work with the MVC Framework.
Awesome!

What is the name for the technology for such controls, so I can look them up (i.e., what replaces "ASP.Net Server Controls")? Is it "javascript client controls"?
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Old March 23rd, 2009, 01:53 PM
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Usually when I do a google search I always start with jQuery. So jQuery date picker or jQuery WYSIWYG Editor. You can search their library here or just browse around.

http://plugins.jquery.com/

The nice part about js frameworks is you can use multiple ones. Ext is another really popular one, so is YUI which is released by yahoo. jQuery has the best performance as far as I can see but I have merged Ext, YUI, and jQuery together in projects without issue.

The jQuery plugins you'll find will be downloadable as js files, you just have to make sure that the jQuery js file loads up before the plugin so it works. The rest is just a matter of following the documentation.

I haven't really explored other custom javascript controls because I'm afraid of bugs. I usually feel better if the control uses and exsisting framework such as jQuery, that way if I need to fix something (haven't yet) its not a complete mess :D.

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Awesome!

What is the name for the technology for such controls, so I can look them up (i.e., what replaces "ASP.Net Server Controls")? Is it "javascript client controls"?
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