Ive recently purchased the book professional web2.0 programming, I found that the files downloaded from the wrox site are missing and prevent any user to reasonably get up and running with the books primary example. I find this unnaceptable as a consumer and as a programmer who would other wise take care of the issue on my own. In principal, I should not have to do this nor do I have the time. Ive found that I can download the YUI library from sourceforge, however the version is one much newer than the version refrenced in the book. Also, the newer version doesnt contain certian key files, nor does it contain any images. I havent started my search for SQLite because I dont feel I should need to spend the time to do it. Get this ... ive already PAID for the book. The payment should stop there. I dont learn anything about web2.0 by playing system administrator. I have to do that at work, I shouldnt be expected to do that at home either ;0)

Here is the exerpt from the complaint/suggestion I sent wrox

Matt: I'll add some links in the download page to YUI and the other 3rd party components to make the download process a little simpler.
This is an issue though that I don't think is so cut and dry. You pointed out some of the cons of not including these in the book download. Conversely, some of the cons of including them with the download would have been:
 

• Usually the vendors don't want them included
• Usually it's better to get the most up to date version from a vendor rather than the older version from our download
• The vendor's site may be a better source for issues and fixes for their pieces
• Individual vendor downloads may be large - combining them into 1 large book download may make the download itself not work for some users[/*]

All of these factors make us generally think that when a book relies on something that's freely available as a download from a vendor, we'd rather you get it direct from the vendor than from us.
Finally, as far as learning philosophy goes, with an example like this, we weren't expecting that most users would take this example and build their own uses from it. What you're really learning is the combination of Web 2.0 programming concepts plus how to put them together and make them work. When you create your own Web 2.0 site/app, you're going to be doing exactly many of these things: finding/troubleshooting the specific version of a library you need, installing and configuring the db, getting the libraries to work with your chosen db, etc. Web 2.0 programming is like putting together a puzzle where you first have to collect some of the pieces.

Jim Minatel
Acquisitions Director
Wiley Technology Publishing
WROX Press
Blog: http://wroxblog.typepad.com/

Jim,

I appreciate your effort on this.

In response, I guess I might have to agree and step back a bit from my earlier position. You are right, when it comes to a learning philosophy it is better to do-it-yourself. In honesty, Ive learned programming on my own and did not take a single class, so believe me I understand the value of going it alone. I guess its just the gut reaction that I have when, everyday, I must wear different hats around the office to get things done, when Id rather be heads down in the code, I have to screw with the server config. I wasnt expecting to have to do that this time, especially when most books spoon feed you. But youre right. For everyone else who hasnt had this 'opportunity' it may do some good. :)

As far as the vendors prefrences .. I dont know what to say .. I guess I still disagree .. usually when one writes software and say, for example, save it into a source code repository, unless what you used is standard lib, you take care to include the extended modules and APIs used to make the software run. But I see where youre comming from.

Matt: Thanks for the conversation on this, it's given me some things to think about. We're constantly tweaking the "how to put together good code download" guidance we give authors. I don't know that there are any set answers from this, but I think it raises some questions we need to answer specifically for each book when we finish the code.

Jim Minatel
Acquisitions Director
Wiley Technology Publishing
WROX Press
Blog: http://wroxblog.typepad.com/
Wrox online library: http://wrox.books24x7.com

Please do not take any offense to this post as I am in no way berating you, but simply offering some friendly advice. =] First Jim is completely correct, large download can become problematic for people even when they are on a Fat Pipe case in point: I had to be mailed a copy of Server2K8 because the download simply timed out and I am on a Fat Pipe. Granted, Server2K8 is almost a 1GB download it still illustrates my point. Would it be more convient for the user if the apps or libs were included as part of the code download, absolutely but, as Jim pointed out, this is not normally the best practice.

In so far as wearing many hats, I am not sure how I feel about that statement. I can relate to having to come out of your IDE because IIS decided it wanted to go AWOL or the SQL Server decided now was a good time to download the latest unnecssary MS Patch and restart itself, it can become frustrating. Now, maybe it is my anal retentive nature but I don't want anyone touching my Database or Web Servers regardless if it be a DBA, SysAdmin, or otherwise and, thank god, I work in an office where I have control over my servers (internally anyway). It can be stressful and there are days I would rather not deal with the problems that come up but, really, I wouldnt have it any other way!

Now that I am down off of my soap box ;] the only thing that I can say, in so far as Wrox is concerned, is that community is great here. Alot of the authors are contributors and there are just alot of good programmers here (Imar, plaonie, gbinachi just to name a few) and we are all more then happy to help =] If you have any other problems, let us know. Good luck. =]

-Doug

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matt - couldn't agree with you more on your first comments, this is completely unacceptable.

jim -

   Usually the vendors don't want them included

Then use some other code base - try qualifying your statement as to why vendors don't want them included, b/c it makes no sense, and sounds, to me, like a pathetic excuse.

   Usually it's better to get the most up to date version from a vendor rather than the older version from our download

Anyone that develops code or reads tech books these days knows that this statement is, at first glance, valid, but then after the first second passes, reality sets in and becomes fluff.

Why? code versioning - there is variance from one version to the next, be it major, minor, revision, or even build - this reality manifests itself in both the runtime behavior and static source artifacts.

Given this, it's completely useless to a developer to speak of a library without specifying the exact version. Again, anyone, mildly up to date with the culture will know this.

   The vendor's site may be a better source for issues and fixes for their pieces

Yes, this is true, but again, code version - it's necessary, it matters - to spell it out for you, when the 'gentlemen' that wrote this book and created the examples did so with a particular version of YUI. As a result, it is only that particular version that has been verified against the examples!! As a developer, when I go through book examples, I only dare to use other versions under 2 conditions.

1) I am very familiar with the code to the extent that I am technically impervious to the delta set between the versions.

2) I've gone through all the examples in the book with the original library version, so I know that changes that result from using subsequent maintenance, minor or major release of the library can be easily identified and therefore remedied.

Individual vendor downloads may be large - combining them into 1 large book download may make the download itself not work for some users

this is an absurd excuse - what about including a CD?
your reasoning is based on a small minority of the target audience - though somehow it managed to steer quality of the final product itself.

bottom line - to me the lack of ever mentioning a version of the many libraries that they expect you to use in the examples is an indicator that these 'gentlemen' along with their technical editor, have no idea what they are talking about. This is hard to believe, b/c, despite the poor quality in the technical details, the book had some interesting things to say - such a shame.

d3nn15: You're right that it was a mistake not to specify the version of YUI that was used in creating BuzzWatch in the printed book. Perhaps in this case even the choice of YUI itself at the time was a mistake, given its early alpha infancy 0.1x state at the time. Should the authors have known later releases would break and not be backward compatible? Maybe. In any event, thanks to people pointing this out, we have rectified this by adding YUI and specifying the version as the first item in the download list:
http://www.wrox.com/WileyCDA/WroxTit...load_code.html

Including a CD? Generally speaking, I avoid including a CD with a book whenever possible because we do have to pass along the added cost versus a download and in most cases, programmers don't see value in something they could have downloaded. Was this a case where maybe the CD would have been worth a few dollars more on the book price? Maybe. I think though more likely is that:
Some straightforward install/config directions for Buzzwatch along with knowing the proper versions solves all of this without a CD. Eric has promised to work on the install directions soon (although I know that's of little help to you now, it will be of help to others thanks to you).
What's ironic in some respects is that this team of authors spent more time and effort versioning the code for Buzzwatch, using CVS for the chapters themselves, than most any other author team I've seen. I know from watching how they worked that they absolutely understand the value of pristine code for readers. I think it's just a matter of forgetting to include 1 or 2 really important details that they all knew so well and unfortunately took for granted that the YUI version and install/config got overlooked.

Could some of the authors be more responsive? Sure. I'm always looking for authors who do a great job spending time in these forums, answering questions, responding to tech support issues, and so on. But having worked at other publishers and watching other publisher web sites, I'll say this: while there are many Wrox authors who are above and beyond the call on these forums and in comparison to those great Wrox authors some authors on this book are unresponsive, I know that when compared to the errors in other books from other publishers and from the lack of a public forum to even publicize and respond to errors, this team is no worse that the typical programming book team from other publishers in that regard.

Is that an excuse? No, we should do better.

Are these authors (as you say in your other post) "con-artists" with "the nerve to completely disregard the cries for help/clarification on the book's forum." No. Come on. Be realistic.

And in particular, I'd ask you to be careful how broad of a brush you paint the 5 author team with. If you look for example at Joe Fawcett's profile here on Wrox.com, or in the Professional Ajax forum you'll see what a mistake it would be to equate all 5 authors on this without individual knowledge of each. Your loss though. Professional Ajax which Joe contributed a couple of chapters to is regarded as one of the best (if not the best) Ajax book there is, at least if you go by quality of Amazon reviews.

Jim Minatel
Acquisitions Director
Wiley Technology Publishing
WROX Press
Blog: http://wroxblog.typepad.com/
Wrox online library: http://wrox.books24x7.com

again, in the times of open exchange of knowledge and information,..the day respect is simply handed out- independent of the information and knowledge, itself, is the day we know that we are sitting in a wasteland.

O.o Maybe I misread something but where was it implied, implicitly or explicitly, that respect should be simply handed out?

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