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BOOK: ASP.NET 2.0 Website Programming Problem Design Solution ISBN: 978-0-7645-8464-0
This is the forum to discuss the Wrox book ASP.NET 2.0 Website Programming: Problem - Design - Solution by Marco Bellinaso; ISBN: 9780764584640
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old August 15th, 2008, 11:56 AM
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Al/Nick,

Nice to hear that you're moving apace on the MVC book. I have to say that i do like the concept of the MVC framework but have been holding off (due mainly to our company policy of not being early adopters) working with it until it's beyond the preview stages. Likewise, with LINQ to SQL, our 'policy' (due to having multiple databases inhouse) has been to use standard SQL. This book should allow me to 'play' with this stuff in preparation for our company adopting these technologies. Playing devil's advocate for a moment, i can also see issues in writing a book that relies quite heavily on fairly unproven scalable technologies. I was recently reading the 'open letter to microsoft' (http://stevenharman.net/blog/archive...onfidence.aspx) where many longstanding devotees of nhibernate/subsonic etc have been lambasting microsoft over their implementation of entity framework. without getting onto any soapbox, i'm sure that microsoft are playing reactionary, rather than revolutionary tactics with ef/mvc and even to a lesser extent, linq to sql.

anyway, as i said, devil's advocate stuff - looking fwd to reading the book when it emerges.

all the best for now....

jimi

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Old August 15th, 2008, 12:50 PM
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Wow... I am not even going to get into the bickering over the EF. It reminds me of the bickering over LINQ, which was preceded by the bickering over AJAX, etc. and so on. Sounds to me like a lot of NHibernate fans are getting their ox gored.

I would, instead, love to see some real-world, solid, specific input by the members of this community. I gave my list. Hopefully, some of you will be able to add to it.

I would add a few more things to the list:

-- Full-text indexing for articles, forums, etc. Back when the last edition of the book came out, full-text was not supported by SQL Server Express. It is now. Integral to building an community-driven site is the ability to find past content easily and quickly. This should definitely be integrated into any update of this work.

-- Since you're now implementing AJAX, it might make sense to move the validation out of the UI altogether and into the BLL where it belongs (much as Windows forms apps do). I realize this may be too much to ask. But it's something to consider if you're tearing this thing up and starting from square one.

-- And about the EF... it would be very nice to integrate LINQ to Entities into this site. if only to show how it could be done. This would allow you to connect to any DB for which an ADO.NET provider is available (Oracle, MySQL, DB2, VistaDB, etc), and would thus allow you to retain Marco's "plug-and-play" DAL provider model. It'd be a shame to lose that.

I would point out that these suggestions would apply to BOTH new editions.
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Old August 15th, 2008, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
quote:Originally posted by Lee Dumond
-- And about the EF... it would be very nice to integrate LINQ to Entities into this site. if only to show how it could be done. This would allow you to connect to any DB for which an ADO.NET provider is available (Oracle, MySQL, DB2, VistaDB, etc), and would thus allow you to retain Marco's "plug-and-play" DAL provider model. It'd be a shame to lose that.

I would point out that these suggestions would apply to BOTH new editions.
Lee - as i said, devil's advocate stuff but as with any controversy, there follows consideration and reflection.... i think you've totally nailed one of the key tenets in the above quote re adhering to the original DAL provider model. anyone who 'knows' me will know how big a fan i am of this pattern (at least for now :D) and i wouldn't give up the elegance of that no matter what the apparent 'quick win'. EF certainly in it's prmoise should deliver far more insofar as it'll provide for those multiple databases. in the real world out there, that's the key defining factor as to how and why peeps buy into an idea.

now, as for ajax.net - ooops :)

jimi

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Old August 16th, 2008, 09:23 AM
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Hey, I just thought of something else.

In any application that uses roles, there is a hit to the database on every page request to fetch the role for the current user. This is quite inefficient. The ASP.NET Framework contains a mechanism to easily allow roles to be cached in a cookie. Just takes a couple of lines of extra code. Unfortunately, the original application doesn't do this. This is something that should definitely be implemented in the new editions.

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Old August 16th, 2008, 10:45 AM
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Wow Jim told me you guys would be passionate about this subject.  It is great to see.

I would like to provide my philosophy, it is one that I carry through my blog, and will be carrying through this book.  My goal of my blog and of this book is to provide an architecture and a starting point to build great applications off of. Â

I am not the baker that makes great deserts, I am the guy providing the ingredients.  I will give you suggestions on how to use the ingredients, I will bake the cookies from the ingredients, but to say my cookies are the be all and end all of the baking world would be a gross misstatement.  I rely on my readers to add that dash of nutmeg or special ingredient that makes my foundation their own. Â

That is why I keep the designs at the 50,000 foot level.  Because if I went any deeper than that I would be making assumptions about architecture that I probably shouldn't be making. Â

That being said, I keep the design separated enough that if you wanted to you could replace the LINQ to SQL with the entity framework that supports MySQL, and as long as the entity objects didn't change much you would have maybe a half hour of work.  Same is true if you want to implement a distributed caching system against the data layer using the new project Velocity. Â

There are always going to be requirements, but my job as an educator is to provide a solid ground to build your applications on.  What you build and how you decorate that ground isn't really for me to say.  Plus we have all seen applications that have a ground framework equivalent to sand, and if I provided that it wouldn't bode well for Myself, Al, or Wrox.

As a way of showing you guys that I am listening to your suggestions, and taking them seriously. I have created an IdeaPipe for the Website Programming Problem-Design-Solution book. This will provide you a direct pipe to myself and Al so that we can review your suggestions and provide constructive feedback on each individual idea. We will also mark their status as, In Book, Next Book, or Follow Up. The Follow Up means we will make an effort to provide a post-book follow up on how to implement your idea. If you would like to check out the IdeaPipe please go to.

http://www.ideapipe.com/groups/wrox-...-solution-book

Check out my blog at: http://www.coderjournal.com
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Old August 16th, 2008, 11:14 AM
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I'm a little confused. Jim writes, "...you come away with a good appreciation of how to build a real app with EF for the DAL..." and later, "...In the entity framework focused book...". Then Nick writes, "...that if you wanted to you could replace the LINQ to SQL with the entity framework..."

So, does this book focus on an EF-based architecture or not?

While I understand Nick's analogy and his desire to keep the book as "general" as possible, I'm not sure if I agree with Nick's implication that implementing the EF would be like adding nutmeg to a cookie. Seems to me, this would be a far more key "ingredient".

I have to say (and I believe I speak for many others as well) I am very pleased that the community is getting an opportunity to have some input into the direction of the project(s). That is an extremely smart move on Wrox's part for sure.

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Old August 16th, 2008, 11:21 AM
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Hi Lee,

That is because there are two spin offs from the ASP.NET 2.0 book:
  • ASP.NET MVC Website Programming
  • Entity Framework Website Programming (not actually sure of the title)
By the way IdeaPipe runs a batch every hour to determine if an idea has reached the threshold to become popular. If you are looking for newly submitted ideas that I put in on the behalf of a couples of the posters check here.

http://www.ideapipe.com/groups/wrox-...-book/upcoming

Check out my blog at: coderjournal.com
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Old August 16th, 2008, 11:38 AM
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Okay, gotcha. Confusion cleared up. :D

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Old August 16th, 2008, 11:45 AM
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By the way, that link to IdeaPipe doesn't show any new ideas either under the popular or upcoming tabs.

EDIT: I think this is because the site is seriously broken under FireFox 2.0.
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Old August 16th, 2008, 11:58 AM
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"I think this is because the site is seriously broken under FireFox 2.0."

That is really odd I am not seeing this behavior at all. It works under FireFox 2.0, 3.0, IE 7.0, and even IE 6.0 to a limited extent. Do you have any custom plug ins or anything running that might interfere with the rendering like Greasemonkey?

By the way I just launched a fresh VM with FireFox 2.0.0.16, and the site looks just the same as it does in FF 3.0. What is your setup like?

Check out my blog at: http://www.coderjournal.com
 


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